Re: Pre-Dial (et. al.) geo, Wherefore art thou Pre-Dial (et. al.) geo...


"Paul Cupis" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:f6k3t8$1tes$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
News Reader wrote:
Let's stick to the specific area you are talking about - I am now much
clearer on which area that is :) .

Yes, as per your subject line we are talking about Pre-Dial's geographic
callthrough numbers.

According to
<http://groups.google.com/group/uk.telecom/browse_thread/thread/b3f99c7400d7be21/5e6d677851b38f05?lnk=st&q=uk.telecom+01635&rnum=10#5e6d677851b38f05>
this service offers callthrough to various international destinations as
well as "UK Freephone", "UK National", "UK Local Rate 0845".

You yourself queried the economics of the service a while back:

<http://groups.google.com/group/uk.telecom/browse_thread/thread/2d5317ecd9037c66/511246a19467bbd2?lnk=st&q=uk.telecom+01635&rnum=2#511246a19467bbd2>

Now, the termination charges payable by BT to another operator (in the
example of a call originating on BTs network or a call transiting BT from
a third operator (such as VirginMedia or a mobile operator) for a
geographic call will vary from 0.09 to 1.02ppm depending on the time of
day and the distance the call was carried by BT across their network. To
take perhaps a more concrete example, BT have determined that termination
charges payable by them for UK-wide 03 numbers will be based on a
average/blended rate of all geographic calls - this is reasonable as they
are to be treated in the same way as geographic numbers.

The rates for incoming 03 calls originating on BTs network are 0.2657ppm
daytime, 0.1249ppm evening, 0.1003ppm weekend (assumes Single Tandem and
doesn't take into account charges for conveying the call further across
the BT network).

You may be able to send the call to some US destinations for say 0.5ppm -
you instantly make a loss.

The Pre-dial numbers allow you to call UK 0845 numbers - lets look at
that. BTwholesale will charge an operator around 2.1ppm daytime to transit
a call to another operators 0845 number. Termination charges paid by BT to
the range holder will be between 1.3ppm and 2.1ppm depending on how much
work BT did in transiting the call (how far it travelled). I'm assuming a
"long" 0845 call here (5 minutes or more).

Using someone other than BT, you are probably looking at around 3.5ppm to
send the call to 0845 peak time.

You must remember that the terminating operator will be receiving a
certain amount of termination revenue for the call, so any operator
conveying the call for you will have to charge more than the termination
rate otherwise they are subsidising the call.

This example (UK geographic callthough to UK 0845) is also, therefore, not
economically viable.

None of the above takes into account overheads like interconnects,
hosting, maintenance, staff, billing. I haven't really touched on transit
charges and probably many other things. Hopefully what I have outlined
will show you some actual facts rather then what one "feels" or "believes"
should be possible. If you have any queries on the BTwholesale
charges/rates, they are available from http://www.btwholesale.com/cpl and
apply equally to all operators which BT interconnect with. Before anyone
suggests to look at other operators, consider that with the largest
customer base, the majority of calls on the network should originate from
BT, so what they pay interconnected operators is critically important -
operators further away from this point will see less and less termination
revenue as any operators involved in carrying a call get paid.

* Inbound Received Call Termination Receipt (Revenue): Let us assume (as
I understand is approximate to market for example for BT <--> Virgin
Media) something of the order of 0.5p/min. My maths says their is margin
their, above cost and possibly even a (razor) thin profit to! lol

Here is one example "source" for the Pre-Dial "quote":
http://forum.niftylist.co.uk/index.php?topic=2727.msg12126#msg12126

"due to a dispute with a Telco over revenue due to pre-dial." - not a lot
of detail there. Revenue due to pre-dial for incoming geographic numbers
is not going to cover the cost of making the associated outgoing calls.
Maybe the dispute is because the telco was making a loss due to rate
error.

Whichever way you look at it, the idea of selling a service a less than it
costs to provide the service is just not going to work. If it were
possible to offer geographic callthrough to such a range of destinations
as Pre-dial were without charging the caller seperately and make any money
out of it, there would be plenty of people doing it.

When I talk about being "squeezed" I don't mean by numbers - i.e. the
rate being received changing - rather I mean the big notion of squeezing
as in two big blokes literally squeezing the life out of you - i.e. in
this case squeeze as in call the regulator, have a pals meeting (BT,
Virgin Media, Vodafone, etc.) and sit down and agree to exert all, any
and every pressure on the associated networks and operators that are
facilitating Pre-Dial, or that Pre-Dial works with or is primarily
dependent on, etc. (and then keeping on ratcheting up that "pressure").

So it's a conspiracy?

<snip lots more stuff>


Hi,


Thank you very very much.

That is a most welcome, appreciated and informative introduction and
outline.

I really appreciate you providing your and such insight.

I agree... with the detail and specifics, the metrics, it is much easier to
evaluate and compare.

Looking at what you have provided, it may just be possible to occasionally
in a very razor thin environment that is entirely best case on all fronts,
provide some termination to a VERY limited destination list.

Basically, it would suggest on the face of it that it is entirely impossible
(to do economically - which is the only thing I think we are talking about
here really).

As you conclude, many other operators would be doing this if it were
possible to do at fractional profit. I thought this may have been the case
and hoped (and probably do still somewhat hope - even if to a much more
restricted destination list and certain times of the day, etc.) others would
(will) come along to do this.

I think the only "real" possibility here is something which is clearly going
to be covered by termination agreements and so be shady or simply not
allowed / essentially illegal - exploiting rate differentials, mis-pricing,
etc.

The bottom line is that someone doing an entirely shoestring operation could
generate some inbound termination revenue. That operator can then provide,
on that shoestring and sticky tape and cardboard approach, some onbound
service - be it internet or data access service [e.g. geoisp - apologies
that previous url should have been .co.uk]; voip gateway; etc. - or possibly
international termination (as I say with it may have been either Hong Kong
or Singapore mobile some of them can get to nearly positive rates - paid to
deliver a call to them; certainly with US toll free you can be paid to
deliver calls to them). I agree it is all very thin and essentially beyond
the pale but not entirely - if you are prepared to do this without profit,
etc. then some very simple and very limited service might be possible.

As to (in respect of the other posters comments) the example rates
pertaining to for example voipdiscount, voicetrading, etc. - those examples
are given as "retail" (because they are sold to consumers or business -
primarily as end consumers) - they are clearly NOT the rates Betamax
themselves pay for those destinations (i.e. they make profit, they have to
add and cover their costs, etc. - hence whatever rates voicetrading show
they are higher than Betamax are buying them in for), etc.

In any event... I am immensely grateful for these inputs. I have long wanted
some credible and informed insight and comment on these areas short of
having to learn a whole new area myself - which is very time consuming -
learn bespoke systems (filing, structuring, etc. if not "IT systems");
bespoke language, etc. BT's serviceview pricing information is hard enough
work not to try BT wholesales or Openreach's (I have had a bit of a look
around some of these operators records and they have proven reasonable
accessible [readable / easy enough to work with, read, etc.]). In short, I
think we can happily conclude with what you suggest to be the case... and
can be pleased that we agree :) .


Many thanks again and best wishes,




News Reader


P.s. I do still possibly wonder about another angle which is like mis-priced
rate and route exploitation - i.e. not likely to be long lived, or
ultimately accepted; although not necessarily wrong or illegal depending on
contracts. E.g. Network A (actually owned by XYZ) purporting to be a
separate dissociated entity from Network B owned by XYZ and various
combinations involving another or various other operators (e.g. BT) and
different combinations of those components (e.g. possibly "interesting"
routing considerations). Anyhow, basically as per my last paragraph above -
thanks, great info, gives a clear insight and impression that this is not
economical bar some almost theoretical exceptions. :) Many many thanks again
to you and all. :)



.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Pre-Dial (et. al.) geo, Wherefore art thou Pre-Dial (et. al.) geo...
    ... According to this service offers callthrough to various international destinations as ... the termination charges payable by BT to another operator (in the example of a call originating on BTs network or a call transiting BT from a third operator (such as VirginMedia or a mobile operator) for a geographic call will vary from 0.09 to 1.02ppm depending on the time of day and the distance the call was carried by BT across their network. ...
    (uk.telecom)
  • Re: Pre-Dial (et. al.) geo, Wherefore art thou Pre-Dial (et. al.) geo...
    ... You yourself queried the economics of the service a while back: ... the termination charges payable by BT to another operator (in the ... it costs to provide the service is just not going to work. ...
    (uk.telecom)
  • Re: Pre-Dial (et. al.) geo, Wherefore art thou Pre-Dial (et. al.) geo...
    ... Thus, even if the termination revenues, fractions ... Virgin Media network and vice versa. ... E.g. if a Vodafone customer calls an Orange ...
    (uk.telecom)
  • Re: Pre-Dial (et. al.) geo, Wherefore art thou Pre-Dial (et. al.) geo...
    ... Are their no other operators offering this geo dial-through service? ... Thus, even if the termination revenues, fractions of a ... Media network and vice versa. ... Vodafone pay part of the call revenue to Orange for that part of the call ...
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  • Re: Socket write behaviour is inconsistent?
    ... I enabled network tracing and in all cases the bytes written are the ... copy 1 byte to buffer, copy many bytes to buffer, copy one byte to ... "response" buffer already includes a termination byte. ... The server isnt supposed to close the connection; ...
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