Re: Committee of Advertising Practice loses the plot [0845/0870 numbers not to be refered to as local/national rate]

Tiscali Tim wrote:
> In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
> Paul Cupis <paul@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>So why, then, do you object to CAP stepping in to ban misleading
>>>adverts?
>>
>>I don't object to this, and I don't think I've said that I do.
>
> OK then, how about reading the title of *this* thread which *you* started!
> Am I missing something, or can you actually say that someone has "lost the
> plot" without objecting to what they are doing?

They have lost the plot. They are telling people not to use a perfectly
correct shorthand for the names dictated by Ofcom and the UK Numbering
Plan for 0845 and 0870 number.

Ofcom: 0870 numbers are National Call Rate before discounts
CAP: Don't say that 0870 numbers are charged at "national rate".

It has long been the case the "national call rate before discounts" has
been shortened to national rate - the BT Price List calls it "national"
all over the place.

As far as what they are doing wrt trying to educating consumers as to
the cost of calling 0870 numbers, I support their intent but disagree
with their method/implementation.

>>I do object to people saying that 0870 numbers are not national rate,
>>when they are defined as being national rate (before discounts, call
>>packages etc).
>
> I object to people using outmoded definitions to imply that these calls cost
> the same as ringing your granny in Scunthorpe.

As long as these are the definition specified by Ofcom, then these are
the definitions. If Ofcom change the definitions, so be it.

>>I do object to people saying that BT Together Options are not call
>>packages/discount schemes which allow them cheaper/free geographic
>>calls - calls at prices lower that the published standard/basic
>>tariff.
>
> I object to people refusing to accept that - whatever the official
> definitions may say - BTT Option 1 has become the de-facto standard for call
> pricing to geographic numbers.

Well I'm sorry to here that, but I deal with official definitions,
standards.

>>I do object to people claiming that users are incapable of realising
>>that 0870 numbers are not subject to the discounts BT offers certain
>>customers for geographic calls. I don't believe, personally, that
>>requiring adverts to state the BT Together discounted rates for 0870
>>numbers, or even the non-discounted national rates is a step forward.
>
> I object to people claiming that the "street" price for a commodity is
> discounted just because it happens to be less than some bogus "list" price -
> when in reality it is simply a market price, in line with market forces.

BT defined BT Together. BT state that BT Together is a discount package.
Therefore it is a discount package.

The "list price" is not bogus, it does apply to people not on discount
packages.

>>I do object to people claiming that all users of 0845 and 0870 numbers
>>are "scammers".
>
> I don't think I've ever claimed that. But I do believe that their use should
> be more tightly controlled.

I'm not saying that /you/ said it, but people have been saying it.

>>I do object to people saying that 0870 numbers (or any other range)
>>should be "outlawed". Surely people can realise that 0870 is just a
>>number range - if they have a problem with a tariff then they should
>>deal with that, not spout nonsence about a sequence of four digits
>>being illegal.
>
> 0870 numbers do have valid uses - in a relatively small number of instances
> where a value added service is legitimately funded from a share of call
> revenue. However, I do object to organisations - including government -
> creaming off revenue for incoming calls at the expense of the caller when
> there is *no* value added service provided. To this extent, the use of 0870
> numbers *should*, in my view, be outlawed.

Outlawed? Recommended against, yes. Made illegal? I think not.

>>And I do object to people making demonstrably false claims such as:
>> * "No BT customer pays non-discounted rates."
>> * "That rate is not what I pay therefore it doesn't exist."
>> * "If you cannot specify the name and address of someone you know on
>>a particular tariff, then it proves that noone is on that tariff."
>
> I have personally never said any of these things.

I'm not saying /you/ have said these things, but they have been said
over and over during the course of this discussion/thread, and I object
to it.

> What I *have* said - and
> will continue to say - is that the de-facto standard price for geographic
> calls is the price paid by BTT Option 1 customers.

We are talking about local and national rate calls. "The price for
geographic calls" is something invented by BT to help them describe the
BT Together schemes.
.

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