Re: New thread time while you're all here - religious belief and mental health where are the lines?

In urp, janet wrote in response to "Jymn"'s reply to her
<snip>
I'm still very amused that no one seems to have realised
what I was saying ;)

Realised or commented?

Ah - good point, well made :)

<fx bows>
Now the only problem is to determine which category I belong <eg>

<snip>
One could also talk about the value inherent in/perceived to
be there in/whatever talismans, amulets, etc. The power
there might originate with the magician but then again, it
might not - it might be related to what/whomever is
represented on the talisman, or the words invoked thereon.,

Or in the belief of the bearer.
A scene from a Robin Hood production of Friar Tuck devouring
chickens
to harvest "Holy Relics" keeps playing in my mind.

Is it that possible to separate the two - belief of the
holder and the entity itself?

Hence the reference to the Friar Tuck scene.
The efficacy of a Relic, which purports to be a saints finger bone, which in
reality is a left ver from a monk's dinner, is surely just that of belief.
Note I'm not decrying the efficacy of belief. (and I'm ignoring the
possibility of transubstantiation, since that merely reopens the same
question of entity and belief)

Even if we don't go down a
PTerryesque line that belief is what makes the entity
powerful, surely the two are still entertwined to some extent?

Hence the chosen example given above.
Since belief will still be invested in the entity, whether of not the relic
bears any relationship to said entity, both are involved in its efficacy.
However if the relic is itself believed to be a powerful talisman and in the
process haslost any attribution to the original entity, can it not be argued
that the belief in the relic is what is important n its efficacy.

Likewise, if I handed a Kris (knife) to a Gardnerian coven and state it was
owned and used by Gardner while he was a civil servant in Malayla, that he
was an authority on these, cite his book Keris and other Malay Weapons, and
an uncheckable but possible provenance, would its power and value be in its
supposed link to the traditions founder, in its own workmanship, or in
whatever use the coven put the blade to?

Indeed, I suspect that it's perfectly possible to say that
for some medieval magic the power was held to be in the
words themselves, which actually makes a good deal of
sense, when you think about the context.

Not only in medieval magic, there are several contexts in
which the
words themselves are help to have power.
I could argue that NLP is a modern magical tool in which
words have
power.

You could.

I'd be interested to watch. :)

Only watch? :~)
Time to re-invoke Nuala?

<snip>
If the magician achieves their objective, does it matter
what the process used is?

It might, to the magician.

Sometimes it is less exhausting to use physical andrelatively mundanemeans
to achieve an objective.

Jymn


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