Re: Gospel Message; was: Dare we be honest about Islam?

loiner2003 wrote:
- .. -- Tim .-. wrote:
IMO it is 'Message' in the sense of an all-covering term for the
understanding of the New Covenant that we glean from the accounts. It is
what we need to know. Of course, that 'Message' has many
components, such as the teachings of Christ, the historicity of His
life, death, resurrection and ascension, and the theology of the
First Century Church (Jeff take note) as recorded by John. We
cannot therefore sum up all that in just a few words, nor should we
try to, but rather we should keep the Gospels in their entirety.

But some characteristics can be taken out that show why the Gospel
Message is different to any other religion, such as the centrality
of Love, the account of God becoming flesh and dwelling among us,
the positive nature of the teachings (such as, *DO* the good to
others you would like done to you, rather than "Don't to to others
what you would not like them to do to you").

I don't disagree, Tim. But you were saying that the Gospels are
theologically pre-eminent, compared to Paul, because even though they
weren't yet written down, the Gospel Message was already in
circulation. What you say above is far more diffuse than anything
found in the written Gospels; so I'm left wondering what exactly it
was that was circulating as Message, in your view, and how that
Message circulation somehow means that the Gospels, when finally
written, must be given pre-eminence.

After all Paul, however briefly, witness to the fact of the life of
Jesus; he refers, again very briefly, to some of his teaching and
appears to reflect other teaching more generally; and he certainly
majors on his death and resurrection and writes at some length, in a
way the four Gospels don't do, about his understanding of the
significance of those events. And he did all this at between 15 to 50
years before the Gospels were written.

So, again, what is it about the four Gospels that, in your view, makes
them the first place to turn to, rather than Paul, as I would suggest.

"What you say above is far more diffuse than anything found in the written
Gospels".

Is it? What did I mention that cannot be found in the Gospels?
The teachings of Christ - well, they are in the Gospels.
His birth, life, death, resurrection and ascention are all in the Gospels.
John records a more theological understanding, are you claiming he got this
from Paul? The style is very different.
The centrality of love is obviously there in the Gospels, since Jesus said
the greatest of all commands are Love God and Love thy Neighbour. He added
that on these hang all the Law and the prophets. The account of God
becoming flesh and dwelling among us is taken straight from John's Gospel.
The positive nature of the teachings of Christ are there to be seen, since
they were not new, but were a more positive expression of the Old Testament
rules. Even "Love thy neighbour" is Old Testament (it's in Leviticus), but
again Jesus enforces it and becomes more positive. The Levitical version
might be taken to mean only fellow Jews, but Jesus expands it to all people
we come into contact with, and presents the account of the "Good Samaritan"
as an example.

Paul seems contradictory and sometimes confusing. He seems to state that we
are free of the Law, and yet seems to ADD new burdens to the Law, the very
thing Jesus is recorded in the Gospels as accusing the other Pharisees of
doing. Rules are added about how women should dress, how they should
behave, how they should be subservient to their husbands, and so on. All
these rules (which Jeff will insist are 'Commands of the Lord') do not seem
to be evident in the Gospels. Paul says many things which are in tune with
the Gospels, but such things as I refer to above do not seem consistent with
the Gospels.

Thus, if we were to *start* from Paul, as you suggest, then we need to
understand why these things are not supported in the Gospels. Not only
that, but we also need to understand *why* it is that traditional churches
world-wide (that is, Roman Catholic and East Orthodox) revere the Gospels in
higher esteem than the rest of the Bible, including the letters of Paul. A
lesser point, some of the letters formerly attributed to Paul are now
believed to have been written by others. (I have a theory that they may
have been commissioned by Paul, i.e. he asked others to write letters for
him, and told them what he wanted those letters to say).

Also, we need to understand why we do not rigidly apply Paul's "Commands of
the Lord" about women, haircuts, and so on.

Should we all listen to Jeff, then? ;-)

Tim.




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