Re: Parents 'murdered daughter by prayer'

Alwyn wrote:
I'm not sure what this has to do with what we were talking about. In the Gospel story, Jesus cured the man of his blindness. He did nothing similar for Harald, who suffered severe psychological difficulties as an adult resulting from his abuse.

I know nothing about Harald except the small amount you have posted. It is therefore impossible for me to make any comment on his situation, and especially on spiritual matters in his life.

Jesus' healing of the blind man, as presented in John 9, is as much about spiritual blindness as physical. It is a typically Johannine theological presentation woven around some incident whose physical facts have become submerged by deeper reflection. There may or may not be parallels with synoptic stories.

In the physical healing accounts, many of which may have been amplified by the oral tradition, we are dealing with direct contact between a human Jesus and contemporary human sufferers. I doubt whether we can draw many comparisons between those situations and petitions offered to God two millennia later. To avoid doubt, I do believe that Jesus actually healed people; I also believe that prayer can lead to healing today. However I find it hard to draw any specific conclusions or principles from individual stories.


Yet he still believed in a God of generous grace and love who understands our needs. Note in the Luke passage above what God offers when we ask is his Holy Spirit, rather than material gifts.

Right, unlike Subramanya, who Hindu woman pray to when they want a new fridge but can't afford one.

And does Subramanya put Currys out of business? I rather thought he excelled in spiritual guidance, explaining the meaning of OM for example. He is noted too for curing diseases, and getting rid of serpents, rather more than as a supplier of white goods, so far as I understand it. He is, after all, the son of Siva.


The problem is that when suffering humanity prays to God, the chances are that all it gets is more suffering. Perhaps once in a while, suffering can be sublimated to a higher plane of spirituality, but that is very rare. Mostly, suffering just degrades people.

I agree. I would imagine that God does too.


He also said that we would not be heard for our much asking since God already knows us.

So Jesus contradicted Himself. Nothing new there! And yes, it is a paradox that we should have to ask when God already knows what we want.

In speaking of contradiction I imagine you are thinking of the story of the importunate woman who finally badgered a judge into giving her what she wanted. To me that story has something of the "how much more " about it....if even an unjust judge can be persuaded to do good, how much more can we trust God to do good. I don't think it is about much asking but rather about perseverance on our spiritual journey. Like the Bruce in the cave, we learn not to give up when our efforts don't seem to bring success as quickly as we would wish.

And, as I have already said, what we are asking for is the grace of bringing ourselves into alignment with God, the grace of the Holy Spirit.

As with Subramanya, so with Christ - in popular religion this deeper petition is often subsumed by specific and very material petitions. I recall in Japan seeing worshippers passing their purses and wallets to the monks for blessing by being waved in the smoke from the huge incense burners. But I do not think we judge Buddhism just by popular superstition; most people recognise that there are far richer strands of belief. Why should we judge Hinduism or Christianity by such superstition?

And in fact even superstition can have value; it can be a pale reflection of a deeper spirituality. That reflection may be obscured and stay as superstition, but it can also develop into a deeper understanding. People often ask for material things in prayer; and why not? It is good to share with God our present concerns. But there are many who have prayed such prayers and not received what they, on the surface, are asking for. And yet millions of believers do not stop believing because of that. I suggest that is a sign that they know well, if unconsciously, that there is something deeper beneath their surface spirituality.


Thus when he is speaking about prayer, something else must be in his mind than simple petition. The hints are in the idea of glorification of God and of asking in Christ's name. What Christ wants us to do in prayer is to align ourselves with him, to learn to want what he wants, and to ask for that. Once we learn to do that, to ask is indeed to receive.

Harald might have prayed: 'Dear God, since it seems to be Your will that my stepfather rapes me after he comes home drunk, please let me rejoice in it in Your name.' That is a kind of fatalism, which is perhaps more characteristic of Islam and eastern religions than Christianity. It is of course one way of coping with the evils of this world, but if we all accepted evil as God's will, nobody would strive to make things better.

I accept evil as God's responsibility, rather than as his will. The question of what we do with suffering is by no means a simple one. If we can end it, without creating something even worse, then I think we should do. But if we have no way to end it, then perhaps it is right and indeed positive to pray for the grace to accept it uncomplainingly. That is not to accept that suffering is right; it can however be a way to maturity and may even lead to the discovery of a way to end such suffering. Fatalism is not Christian. But patience and perseverance are indeed Christian virtues. Sometimes the two attitudes appear the same, externally; but they are very different in reality.



--

Revd. Eric Potts

"Faith, hope and love abide, these three;
and the greatest of these is love."


.

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