Re: God
- From: Mark Goodge <usenet@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 13:02:14 +0000
On Sun, 08 Mar 2009 10:53:12 +0000, Gareth McCaughan put finger to
keyboard and typed:
Mark Goodge wrote:
[Jeff Hickling, quoting The Message; note that this actually begins
not at verse 23 but at verse 22, which seems to have caused a little
confusion in the subsequent discussion:]
1 John 2:23 (The Message) "So who is lying here? It's the person
who denies that Jesus is the Divine Christ, that's who. This is
what makes an antichrist: denying the Father, denying the Son.
No one who denies the Son has any part with the Father, but
affirming the Son is an embrace of the Father as well."
[Mark:]
..Do you really believe that Scripture to be true?
I do, yes. But I'm surprised that you do.
[Jeff:]
Of course to 'acknowledge or not to 'deny Christ' or to say "yes to the
son" means to believe and be baptised into his saving name as he has
commanded and live a life according to his commands and his Apostle's
teachings.
[Mark:]
Actually, the verse quoted above says that to deny Christ is to deny
that he is Divine.
Actually, it doesn't, unless you think Eugene Peterson is a beneficiary
of verbal inspiration.
Yes, I know that. The point I'm trying to make (as I suspect you've
probably guessed) is that to dispute Peterson's interpretation
requires accepting that there are, in fact, several possible
translations of the original Scriptures and often several
interpretations of any one English translation. But Jeff doesn't
accept that, as he believes that there is a single meaning which is
obvious to anyone who reads it (and that he alone, at least in this
group, is being obedient to). Unless you're in the "inspired
translation" KJV-only camp (which Jeff has previously stated that he
isn't), then that position isn't tenable. But, on the other hand,
accepting that the Bible needs to be interpreted in context rather
than simply taking the "plain meaning" of every verse means that there
can't be a single meaning which is obvious to everyone.
2:22: Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ?
He is the anti-Christ, who denies the father and the son.
2:23: Everyone who denies the son does not have the father.
He who [agrees with / confesses / acknowledges] the son
also has the father."
That word "divine"? Eugene Peterson just stuck it in because he
felt like it; it doesn't correspond to anything in the original
text. (Not in any manuscript known to Nestle-Aland, anyway.)
But I agree with you that "denies the son" in 2:23 is referring
back to "denies that Jesus is the Christ" in 2:22, though probably
there are other things besides "denying that Jesus is the Christ"
that amount to "denying the son". (For instance, 4:2-3 seems to be
talking about something slightly different.)
If Jeff is seriously proposing that the author of 1 John was
thinking about baptism when he wrote these verses, he's out of
his tree, of course.
Oh, absolutely.
Mark
--
Blog: http://mark.goodge.co.uk
Stuff: http://www.good-stuff.co.uk
.
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