Re: Does God enjoy people's cupboard love?

Nov, 23:34, Gareth McCaughan <Gareth.McCaug...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
claire.easth...@xxxxxxxxxxxx writes:
I will deal with the rest of this discussion when I have time but have
to speak up about this bit Gareth.

OK. Please don't feel that you have to rush anything; I know that
these lengthy discussions can eat up a terrible amount of time.

I think you may be wrong in thinking you aren't harming yourself
or others. In the course of this discussion you have implicitly
referred to people like me as "pigs"

At no point did I call atheists "pigs" Gareth. Here is what I said;

"Our lives are still precious even if we do not treat them as such.
Like the value of pearls thrown to pigs!"

Oh, I do beg your pardon; you merely said that people like me
are *like* pigs.

No Gareth, that is not what I said and you know it!


So where did I call you a pig Gareth because that is the only time I
have used the word? And in that context your life was likened to a
pearl - i.e. something lovely and of value!!!!

And to whom, pray tell, was that pearl thrown, in your analogy?

That passage is talking about giving in to evil, not to people but to
Satin.


and "evil"

Wrong yet again - I said that there are forces of good and forces of
evil.

No, that is not all you said. You have said

- that hell consists of ultimate separation from God

- that this is necessary because "if there were no
ultimate separation of good from evil, ... God would
not be in ultimate control" and "God will defeat evil
by quarantining evil and separating it from good."

which no doubt sounds very reasonable until we remember just
what it is that you're justifying in this way: namely that
*people*, me for instance, are allegedly going to end up
being totally separated from God (and that this is a bad
enough thing that it is reasonable to call it hell, but
that's not what the debate is about).

In other words: *I* must be separated from God because it
is necessary that *evil* be separated from God. And: when
*evil* is separated from *good*, guess which side of that
chasm you're putting me on? (Hint: if it isn't the "evil"
side, you can't possibly have given a justification for
hell.)

That does not mean you are an evil person, just that you like us all
have given into evil.


Let me clarify something, though: I said "implicitly"
and I meant it. You haven't said *in so many words* that
I am evil, or that I am piglike,

In fact I didn’t say those things at all did I Gareth.

and very likely you don't
believe those things. And, actually, that's the point.
You asked what harm it could do for you to believe in
hell, and here's one bit of harm: it's making someone
who doesn't regard other people as evil and piglike talk
as if she does.

I’m getting rather fed up with this now. You do seem to be trying to
consciously misunderstand in order to paint me in the worst possible
light.


that has to be
"destroyed" in order for a war to be won.

It is not you we are fighting but ourselves! It is a spiritual war
not a war against other people.

And yet it's people like me who you expect to end up being
destroyed, or quarantined, or whatever, to make God's victory
fully glorious.

I’m sorry you find that offensive but there it is.


I think that ideas like
this one are morally corrosive;

And I think you are being dishonest. You have an idea of what a
Christian is likely to say so have managed to ignore what I actually
said and hear what your prejudiced mind expected.

Always possible, but I'm not convinced so far; see my comments
above.


I hope now you will retract your misrepresentations when your mistakes
become clear to you.



Even if -- as I hope will be the case -- you don't have the
misfortune to meet with circumstances that push you from merely
using language that tends in that direction ("pigs", "evil",
etc.) to actually thinking of some of your fellow humans in
that way

See you're just trying to demonise now - at least if you are going to
discredit an argument make it the one I made.

No. I am *not* trying to demonize you, and that's the point.
You asked me what harm it could do to believe in hell, so
I mentioned some ways in which I think belief in hell puts
you in increased moral danger.

They were based on your misconceptions though so are not relevant
criticisms.

But, since you take such exception to my saying that your
beliefs put you at increased risk of becoming in certain respects
a worse person: tell me, do you think my beliefs put me at
increased risk of becoming a worse person?

No. Although I believe that following Christian teaching can improve a
person it does not make them better as a person necessarily. We should
be genuinely humble and reflect that we do still screw up and that we
are not perfectible is the whole point of the Christian message.

I ask because it
seems very much as if you do, which makes it hard for me to
understand your outrage at discovering that I think the same
of yours.

Its just you misunderstanding and misrepresenting me again that’s
why.

Namely, I think that
believing seriously in hell puts one at increased risk of
becoming callous: of thinking that harming people and making
them suffer isn't really such a bad thing.

No callous atheists then?

Eh? Where did I say anything remotely like that? Of course
there are callous atheists. (And, just for the avoidance of
doubt: there are also greedy atheists, selfish atheists,
dishonest atheists, rude atheists, untrustworthy atheists,
downright malicious atheists, etc., etc., etc. And of
course the same goes with "atheists" replaced by "Hindus",
"agnostics", "Buddhists", "Christians" or just about anything
else.)

Heck you should open your eyes and see what
is done all over by those who believe in making money as a value!

Eh? What does *that* have to do with anything?

The point is that Atheism encourages our human tendency towards
selfishness and moral relativism and we can see where this leads. That
is not to say Christians are better people – it is to say that yes
atheism can (not saying it always does) bring out the worst in
people.


We
get criticised for the things done in the name of Christianity in the
past

And the present. But, as you might have noticed, I wasn't in fact
making any such criticism. Not even earlier on, when I mentioned
religious wars; I was pointing out a danger, not making a criticism
of anyone. (Other than, I suppose, the specific people who have
killed people in the name of God. Whom you have also criticized,
so I assume you don't object to my criticizing them.)

but the truth is that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts
absolutely" -

Yes. And other things corrupt too. Greed, for instance. And,
I am suggesting, potentially also the idea that people could
deserve eternal damnation.

that is why communism failed despite it egalitarian
ideas and attempts to wipe out the church. To be honest I think the
mistrust is mutual because of this common prejudice against
Christians.

I'm not sure I understand that last sentence, but for sure there's
plenty of anti-Christian prejudice around. (And, again, you can
replace "Christian" with just about anything else, "atheist"
included.)

Yes so lets not add to it!




.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Does God enjoy peoples cupboard love?
    ... At no point did I call atheists "pigs" Gareth. ... that hell consists of ultimate separation from God ... ultimate separation of good from evil, ... God would ...
    (uk.religion.christian)
  • Re: ArkivCDs dont seem to sound very rich
    ... options with which we're presented by the god you believe in. ... making "the wrong choice" be hell? ... addition to good and evil which we are being denied. ... Why is that what a mere absence of god would resemble? ...
    (rec.music.classical.recordings)
  • Re: ArkivCDs dont seem to sound very rich
    ... It wouldn't be an option if god didn't make it one. ... options in addition to good and evil which we are being denied. ... In the broadest sense, Hell is the ... seventh game of the World Series and you have a seat directly behind a pole, ...
    (rec.music.classical.recordings)
  • Re: life on other planets ?
    ... He is especially fond of atheists. ... Since God *is* love, His love is perfect, and He can't love anyone more than perfectly. ... who would firmly expect me to end up in hell on account of not ... believing in God despite having decent exposure to Christianity; ...
    (uk.religion.christian)
  • Re: He is risen
    ... Choosing to believe in a single God in the belief ... "Is God willing to prevent evil, ... "With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things ... Which could, of course, apply to some atheists too. ...
    (rec.arts.drwho)
Loading