Re: Does God enjoy people's cupboard love?

claire.easthope@xxxxxxxxxxxx writes:

Human understanding is limited and I
am not going to get angry with God for not telling me everything - I
am not going to throw a tantrum and shout "THATS SO UNFAIR! I HATE
YOU!"

Er, I wasn't suggesting that you should do *that*. (Though it
might just be a better response to the doctrine of hell, if you
really think that Christians have no choice but to accept it,
than yours.)

Why would that be a better response if there is no choice in the
matter – it would just be a waste of my precious energy and result
in me souring my relationship with God.

Let me answer with an analogy. Suppose you are an active member
of a political party, which happens to be in power. And suppose
that the government, in the hands of this party, does something
that on the face of it is monstrously unjust -- since you suggested
earlier that I compare you to the Nazis :-), let's suppose that
they have just announced that all Jews are to be rounded up and
sent to concentration camps. The announcement also says "Please
don't be alarmed. We have very good reasons for what we are doing,
although you cannot be expected to understand them. We ask that
you trust that everything we do is for the best."

In this situation, you might very well believe (1) that nothing
you do is likely to stop them and (2) that protesting might lead
to a breakdown in relationships between you and the party, which
would be bad because (2a) you have invested a lot of your time
and energy and so forth in working for them and (2b) it might
get you in trouble later on and (2c) you feel love and loyalty
to the party and don't want those to be lost.

Do you think that would be sufficient reason *not* to be angry
and upset at what they're doing? Even if, in fact, you did trust
that there must be a good reason?

Incidentally: Since your belief in hell is the result of reading
the Bible and accepting what it says, however difficult: You've
said that you see hell as a sort of unavoidable consequence of
human sin and rejection of God, rather than as something that
God *does* to people; so how do you deal with passages like
Matthew 25:39ff ("depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal
fire prepared for the devil and his angels ... And they will
go away into eternal punishment") and Luke 12:4-5 ("I will
warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has
power to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear him")

I don’t think God could choose not to send away from Him those who
have rejected him – it is like trying to force together the positive
ends of two magnets even though that analogy does not work very well
to describe two opposites – God repels what is bad.

Well, originally you said specifically that sending people to hell
is *not* something God does. If I'm understanding you correctly,
what you're now saying is that he does do it, but he doesn't have
any choice.

So, I have a few questions.

1. Do you have any scriptural backing for the idea that God is
unable to choose his own actions in this respect?

2. Some Christians believe that the damned do not suffer
eternally, but that the (metaphorical, yes) fires of hell
annihilate them. What do you think of this? (It seems to me
that it fits what the NT says about hell about as well as
the traditional idea -- better in some places, worse in
others -- and that "God and evil cannot ultimately coexist
*at all*" is at least as plausible as "God and evil cannot
ultimately coexist *in the same place*".)

3. Don't you think that the combination of infinite power,
infinite ingenuity and infinite love might reasonably be
expected to come up with some better way of dealing with
this unstoppable repulsion than (anything that could reasonably
be described as) hell?

4. How do you think it's possible for God and evil to coexist
as much as they do (assuming Christianity to be correct) in
the present world?

No, really truly I wasn't implying that you think the lives of
non-believers are worth less than those of believers.

Good. :-)

(I *was*
avoiding implying that you definitely don't, for reasons I've
already described.)

Not sure what this bit means – are you back-peddling on your assurance
above on the off chance that I do consider the lives of non-believers
to be worth less? :-/

No.

- Pretty much the first thing you said about hell is that
it's an inevitable consequence of rejecting God.

- Unless you expect to end up in hell yourself, it seems
clear that what you mean by "rejecting God" is not
something so broad that *everyone*, Christians included,
does it.

- So the explanation you gave of how it comes about that
some people end up in hell is, at most, an explanation
of how it comes about that *unbelievers* end up in hell.

- In other words, your argument for why some people deserve
hell (not your word, but to counter the accusation that
hell-as-you-see-it is unjust what you need to do is to
show that we do deserve it) is only really an argument
for why unbelievers deserve hell.

- Which gives the impression that you might perhaps believe
that believers don't deserve hell; at any rate, what you've
given as the reason why unbelievers deserve hell doesn't
apply to believers.

This isn't really about how much anyone's life is worth; the
only reason why I put it that way is that I was responding to
things you said that put it that way :-).

Well you have started our debate by telling me my beliefs are
appalling and you disapprove of me holding them – there is not far
to go from there. If I tell you otherwise I just sound more
appalling! :-)

I disapprove of the beliefs. I'm not sure I'd exactly say
that I disapprove of you holding them. I do think that it
would be better for you if you didn't, though. What I
certainly have not said is that I disapprove of *you*,
which is an entirely different matter from disapproving
of one of your beliefs.

But Christians have not earned their salvation. It is not that they
are better people who deserve salvation - it is just that they have
understood something of the nature of God and how to be with Him.

I'm baffled by that paragraph; it seems to be arguing against
something I never said or suggested. What makes you think
that I think you think Christians have "earned their salvation"?

You talk about whether or not people deserve salvation and suggest
I am saying that some people deserve salvation?

Where, please, did I suggest you are saying that some people
deserve salvation? The nearest thing I can find to that is
the argument I recapitulated above, which suggests that you
*might* think that some people *don't actively deserve
damnation* in the way that (say) I allegedly do.

This is a long, long way from saying that you think you have
earned salvation.

I understand that you don't like being told that what you
believe has those nasty implications.

It seems to be based on a misconception that’s all. There are no nasty
implications. There are lots of things I do not try to wish out of
existence just because they are nasty.

Then, please, *explain to me how the implications don't follow*.
I have explained in detail how I think they do. Your only response
has been to complain that I don't understand Christianity and am
being impolite. This is not helpful.

I don't blame you.
I expect your feeling about that is a bit like my feeling
about being told by (some) Christians that *my* beliefs
amount to rejecting everything that's good and valuable
and true.

I don’t think you reject EVERYTHING that is good – but instead of just
telling me that you do not agree with my beliefs or think I should
hold them I do think it would be more productive to have a think about
what you do believe in.

There appears to be a presumption here that I have not had a
think about what I do believe in, or that I don't continue to
do so.

I invite you to explain to me what basis you have for thinking that.

(The process of deciding that I could no longer remain a Christian,
which I think it would be reasonable to describe as "having a think
about what I do believe in", took me 18 months and the rather terse
notes I made for myself during that time are approximately the length
of a short paperback book. I spend about as much time in uk.r.c
as anyone, with the likely exceptions of Ken Down and our moderator;
I do, hard though you may find it to believe, do quite a lot of
thinking in the course of discussions like this one. I have three
shelves of books on philosophy and three of books on theology, all
of which I have read and, dare I say, thought about. I don't say
this to boast; none of it makes me better than anyone else; almost
certainly someone cleverer than me could have dropped Christianity
faster, and someone wiser than me would spend less time in uk.r.c,
and there's not that much correlation between how much reading
someone does and how much thinking they do. The only point of all
this stuff is that, of all the criticisms that could be made of me --
some of them very severe and very just -- "you haven't really thought
about what you believe in" is probably pretty high on the list of
the most obviously ridiculous. "You spend far too much time thinking
about what you believe in, and would do better to focus on more
important things" would be nearer the mark.)

I often find more of a mutual understanding
with sincere followers of other faiths than I do atheists to be
honest. I just do not get being so proud and so evangelical (for want
of a better word) about not believing in anything.

I invite you to explain to me (1) what evidence you have that
I don't believe in anything and (2) what evidence you have that
I am proud of not believing in anything.

I'm not sure whether by "evangelical" you mean "evangelistic"
(i.e., seeking to make converts) or something else, but if it's
the former then I also invite you to show me where I have made
any attempt to get anyone to "not believe in anything".

You might wish to consider the possibility that you find more
mutual understanding with followers of other faiths because you
don't leap to the same conclusions about them as you have done
with me.

--
Gareth McCaughan
sig under construc


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