Re: Does God enjoy people's cupboard love?

Giles <g_harrap@xxxxxxxxxxx> was inspired to say
On Nov 4, 11:16 am, Michael J Davis <mjduse...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

The other side of the message - is that suffering (resulting from all
causes) is not of God. It is the result of our 'fallen' nature and sin.

So, when an earthquake leads to a rock injuring an animal, that's bad
luck.

You are being rather more literal than I would be in this respect. ;-)

When an earthquake leads to a rock injuring a human being, that's due
to their sin?

As you are aware, one of the biggest questions facing any religion is
the way in which 'the problem of evil' (as it is often called) is
explained.

The Christian view is that there isn't an immediate causality between
doing wrong and the effect. That must be clear to any atheist, in that
they've discovered that they can deny God and not be hit by lightning!
So earthquakes may be a cause or source of suffering, but they are not
'caused' by sin.

But what must be equally clear is that there is a flaw running through
humanity, in that even good intentions can lead to bad deeds, and that
what might be called 'bad' has an attraction, whereas 'good' doesn't. It
is difficult to explain this in evolutionary terms (though it wouldn't
worry me if there were an evolutionary hypothesis for it).

Before I go on, I would argue that badness or evil is not the same as
suffering. For instance there is nothing 'wrong' with an earthquake per
se, they happen.

Now it is clear to me that I would wish to alleviate suffering in
mankind or for animals, but it is a fact of life. At this point I could
go on about my experiences of praying for the sick and dying (and for
animals), but I'd rather refer you to Jesus on this subject.

Firstly; a commentary very similar to your question:-
Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about
the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their
sacrifices.

Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse
sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this
way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all
perish.
Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on
them-- do you think they were more guilty than all the others
living in Jerusalem?
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

Then he told this parable: "A man had a fig tree, planted in his
vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find
any.
So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, 'For three
years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree
and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the
soil?'
"'Sir,' the man replied, 'leave it alone for one more year, and
I'll dig around it and fertilize it.
If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.'"
[Luke 13:1-9]

The first part shows that Jesus is saying that God (through human
agency) isn't punishing one lot of people for their relative sinfulness,
In the second part, he's showing that God is merciful and gives everyone
a chance to repent and bear fruit, but ultimately some form of judgement
will come.

Next; Jesus' mission on earth is signified by His control over nature
and sickness, and, indeed, death.

Examples of his control over nature is the calming of the storm[1]; over
death, His raising Jairus' daughter to life[2]; over disease and
infirmity, His healing the sick [many examples in the Gospels], and
other signs that show He had authority over these things - the supreme
one being His own resurrection.

[1] The disciples went and woke him, saying, "Master, Master, we're
going to drown!" He got up and rebuked the wind and the raging
waters; the storm subsided, and all was calm.
"Where is your faith?" he asked his disciples. In fear and
amazement they asked one another, "Who is this? He commands even
the winds and the water, and they obey him."
[Luke 8:24-25 or Mark 4:35-41]

[2] He went in and said to them, "Why all this commotion and
wailing? The child is not dead but asleep."
But they laughed at him. After he put them all out, he took the
child's father and mother and the disciples who were with him,
and went in where the child was.
He took her by the hand and said to her, "Talitha koum!" (which
means, "Little girl, I say to you, get up!").
Immediately the girl stood up and walked around (she was twelve
years old). At this they were completely astonished.
[Mark 5:39-42] or [Luke 8:41-55]

Following Jesus, we see that the Apostles continued to use His authority
to continue with such signs, and the Church today has many people who
continue this work of signs and wonders. But there is 'ordinary' work
too, in working to alleviate suffering in medicine and in charitable
actions, whether on a local or international scale.

Which leads me to the question of animal suffering. My honest reaction
is to say 'I don't know how God deals with that!' (I can tell you that
I've prayed over animals in Jesus' name and they have been healed, but
that seems to be more a sign to their owner than to the animal!)

It is clear that Jesus ate lamb (the Last Supper) which had been
ritually slaughtered, but we are also commanded from the beginning to
have stewardship over creation, and that seems to me at least to be a
sign that we should not impose unnecessary suffering. Some on this group
are creationists, because they cannot conceive of suffering by animals
before humans appeared on the scene. I don't accept that.

So I am left with the understanding that some suffering is inherent in
nature, but that evil intensifies it significantly - surely *that* can
be seen all around us?

The main Christian conclusion is that God will show us how it all fits
together as we continue to seek Him and to live our lives according to
His plan for us. Whether we shall see the answer this side of the grave
I doubt; that there is one I am as certain about as I am in knowing
God's love for His creation.

I may not have answered your question, but I hope I've made it clear
that it is something that has been given a lot of thought over the
centuries.

Mike

--
Michael J Davis
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