Re: Is there a god?


"Richard Corfield" <Richard.Corfield@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> a écrit dans le
message de news: slrngf931u.shu.Richard.Corfield@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
| On 2008-10-14, pg <pgk9@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
| >|
| >| When I've heard it it has generally seemed a lack of understanding. A
| >| failure to see how someone can maintain morality and "not steal or
| >| whatever" without a god or something to watch over and ensure they are
| >| caught for it.
| >
| > Yes - covered by the 'immaturity' part of the above, I think. But the
| > 'debauchery' implication is more often the case with fundies who believe
| > themselves to have adopted certain particularly stringent moral codes, and
| > consider atheism to autmatically lead to a state closer to immorality than
| > amorality - perhaps you don't mix with them so much! (Sometimes guilt over
with
| > respect to their own previous behaviour is a contributory factor).
|
| Immaturity in the part of the religious person or the atheist?

The atheist from the religious person's pov, a half-way house superficiality,
lack of deeper understanding, en route to a better, more profound position
consistent with the 'real' way of things from a grander perspective (again as
viewed by the theist). So yes it's non-judgemental (in moral terms), even if a
patronising position on the part of the theist. (I readily admit that the
atheist is often equally guilty of this sentiment with respect to the theist's
alleged lack of insight and deeper understanding).

| >| Even an idea from Buddhism that "it produces negative habit patterns which
| >| will grow and catch me out some day" is a way of something catching you
| >| in the end.
| >
| > Not sure what you are implying by the "it" in the above sentence.
|
| Negative behaviour - stealing etc...

Ok but this element of Buddhist psychology actually fits in very well with
evolutionary psychology theory on the development of ethics. Because there are
commonly accepted patterns of behaviour that have evolved to benefit the
individual and his kin through cooperation within a group, the odds are that -
when one goes against the grain, departs from the evolved moral norm - in the
end we risk reaping what we have sown - in this life. In other words, the group
will try to punish us. I know Buddhism also takes this a step further with
respect to alleged negative effects being prolonged through reincarnation, but
it certainly applies equally to our current lifetimes. Looking back I can see
that the former is one of the reasons why Buddhism has always felt so
instinctively 'apt' to me, ever since my teens in fact, even if I have no belief
whatsoever in the reincarnation part.

| >| Empathy is something we sort of feel. The Golden Rule (I wouldn't like
| >| someone stealing from me) is so hard to explain logically.
| >
| > Nothing easier to explain, according to evolutionary psychologists! Game
theory
| > again. It would be relatively simple to write a fictional account of the
| > evolution of an intelligent species on another planet with different
survival
| > demands and kin selection priorities, leading to a very different morality
| > construct. One that might appear abhorrent to us, just as ours might to
them.
|
| Even amongst different animal groups on this planet.

Yes

| I suppose some of religion tries to answer the question of where this
| comes from if game theory isn't available. That and evolution are recent
| things. I suppose it's a mistake to overlay a lot of things we take for
| granted onto people 2000 or more years ago, though it sounds like a lot
| in life we do have in common.

Yes but it is available, and it works. It is testable today (eg the 'Prisoner's
Dilemma'). It works with other species, and predicts different behaviour
patterns such as altruism in humans, and different concepts of 'morality' in
different animals. Although it might at first sound paradoxical, the 'Prisoner's
Dilemma', for example pretty much suggests that selfishness is best served by
unselfishness in the case of this particular species of social animal; the human
being. Apply it to an intelligent alien Black Widow Spider equivalent however,
and you would get different results, and a different ethical code emerging.

| Still, the theist argument would be that game theory happens to explain
| a deeper undelying reality.

But that reality (in moral terms) varies from species to species on this planet
alone. Why would that be?




.

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