Re: Punishment - why?

On 9 Apr, 11:44, Michael J Davis <?...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
In message
<15f17cf6-4d30-4802-81bb-3cd36e875...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
claire.easth...@xxxxxxxxxxxx writes>On 2 Apr, 22:45, Michael J Davis <?...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
In message
<1712d3aa-ef2f-440e-8ddd-1a13a2001...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
claire.easth...@xxxxxxxxxxxx writes

because on the whole our natural ability has already
limited us. So even when we are tempted, we cannot!

Errr? The whole concept of temptation presupposes a choice between the
possible, aside from that .... what on earth are you going on about???

Simply that we don't need laws if we are not tempted or able to
transgress them. Punishment (and all the associated sanctions) is
intended to discourage and reform us.

Not quite sure I understand the point you are trying to make here
sorry.

[snips]

How can you be sure our actions are not God's will? I don't want to
get into the George Bush logic "God told me to" here because it is
probably impssible and arragant to say that God agrees with you. But
it is at least a possibility I would have thought. All we can do is
follow our own consciences I guess.

After my conversion, I was pleasantly surprised to discover that my will
was not *always* opposed to God's! However, your point is, I guess,
that our civil courts carry out God's will.

Nope. I was not claiming that at all - just that you were very sure
that you know the will of God on this issue! ;-)

We have a close relationship! ;-)


Hasn't He told you yet about our relationship? ;-)

Or are we (as Christians) saying that punishment is part of forgiveness?

Repentance is part of forgiveness.

Oh, I missed that first time round! Disagree. Before we can *accept*
forgiveness, we may have to a) acknowledge that we were at fault, b)
recognise our need, and that may take the form of repentance (which
means 'turning around'), but we may just accept it and then repeat the
offence elsewhere.

Elsewhere?


However, offering forgiveness is free and doesn't make any demands on
the one who we are forgiving. It is part of freeing ourselves from the
wrong done to us.


That is true, but it is easier where the one who has wronged you is
repentant.

You may have a significant point here, of relevance to this thread, but
I'm not sure if we can handle it in the context of the question I'm
asking.


You're right, I don't think we can. Forgiveness, and who has the
right to forgive, is a whole other issue.


I don't think somebody can be
rehabilitated until they realise that they were wrong and want to
change. Part of the reason for punishment is to make it clear who is
in the wrong.

Surely declaring someone guilty, and proposing actions for
rehabilitation and restraint is enough for that, why *punish* as well?

Depends on the offence but using rehabilitation alone would be like
treating
the person who has committed the injustice as the victim requiring
support, attention and resources and ignoring the needs of the victim.

(I hadn't omitted restitution - which means making good in every sense
that which the victim was deprived of - you seem to have done. Mind you
that's difficult in a case of, say, murder!)

EXACTLY! Restitution is OK for civil matters; when your neighbour has
built a wall on land within your boundary or your boiler was installed
wrongly, but how can you restore or "make good" intangible things the
cost of which you could never measure? What is the value of a life?
What could you do to make good for the victim of sexual or physical
abuse for example?

OK - explain to me why the victim *requires*, let's say, "revenge".
(That's what it seems like to me.)

I have been thinking about this in relation to restitution. In a way
the logic of restitution and retribution runs on the same principle,
in the same way that rounding up or down does! In cases where the
victim cannot be raised up the idea is that the perpetrator should be
brought down. Retribution short-changes wrong-doers but restitution
would never pay the wronged their dues


That does not seem very fair. Of course the sentence passed as to be
for the wider public's good (i.e. most likely to protect them and
reduce reoffending) but just as the offender has a need for personal
consideration so does the victim.

Given restitution - why does adding more 'pain' to the situation enhance
the 'good'?

I am not sure it does and also of course we must remember that some
situations mean there is not a clear line between victim and
perpetrator.
.

Relevant Pages

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