Re: The status of Mary (was Re: Follow up to: "Ecclesial Communion, Conciliarity and Authority")

"Tom Higgins" <tom.higgins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:MPG.2247adc42100dfcb989755@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[Tom Higgins had said..]
However, it's clear from Genesis that God created Eve for /two/
inter-related reasons. One, so that Adam would not be alone; and
two, so that Eve could be "a helper suitable for him". A very clear
way that Eve (or anyone at all) can help someone, is to ask God for
the thing that is seen to be needed (whether or not the request for
help was voiced by Adam). That is the very definition of
intercession.

[Phil Saunders said..]
.. The reason that it wasnt good
for Adam to be alone was because it was right that he should have a
helper
suitable for him.

Scripture doesn't say that.

Well it says there was a problem, God expressed the problem and then
resolved it.

There was not a suitable helper found
God said it is not good
God fixed it

How clear did you want it?

First God says what the need is ("It is
not good that the man should be alone") and then indicates what the
chosen solution is ("I will make him a helper fit for him"). Nothing
says that God could not have chosen some other solution. God, being
God, was entirely free to select any solution He wished.

First there was the problem, then God expressed it. You need to start at the
beginning.

That is one need since one he had a suitable helper he
wasn't alone.

God chose a particular solution out of all the solutions He could
have come up with. The chosen solution meant that Eve was a helper;
other solutions might not have involved creating a helper. Hence
though there is one need, there are two inter-related reasons
involved in the particular chosen solution.

God decided to make a helper that would solve the issue of it not being good
for man to be alone. The "so God" expresses that.

What it meant that there was not a suitable helper available to Adam from
among the animals. Since they couldn't converse etc that is unsurprising
to
me.

Scripture doesn't indicate that it is conversation that is the
reason.

Nor did I, I put etc in and said that because the animals couldnt relate to
Adam in the way another person could it was of no surprise to me that none
were suitable.

It is not bizarre to not ask a person who is a suitable companion for
you to intercede with God on your behalf. Which, if you recall is what
this
discussion is about.

Actually, all I said was that the the suitable helper is, of course,
entirely free to ask God for help, whether or not the companion asks
for it.

if that is what you meant then it doesnt address the point in hand.

[Tom Higgins had said..]
Hence, Eve was created as someone that Adam could ask for help. And
Eve would be able to, in turn, ask God for that help. That is, to
intercede for him.

[Phil Saunders said..]
..Eve was
created to be the helper suitable for Adam. It doesn not say that she was
created to be the person who asked for help for Adam from God.

I said only that Eve could ask for help from God for whatever
purpose she chose.

Indeed she could. Does the scripture indicate that she ever did?

Adam is not alone because a suitable helper has been provided. The helper
is
Eve. With what was she to help Adam? With the things that Adam had to do,
that is what helping means.

Eve is free to ask God for help for whatever purpose she wishes.

So you say.

Nowhere in the text or around it is there the idea that Eve was to
intercede
with God on behalf of Adam.

Eve is free to ask God for help for whatever purpose she wishes.

repeating an irrelevance won't make it relevant

Intercession by Eve for Adam is a novelty that is not found in the
scriptures. If you think it is there then by all means reference it.

Eve is free to ask God for help for whatever purpose she wishes.

See it is still irrelevant.

Are you suggesting that somehow, although Eve was to be a helper,
she was never to actually obtain help from the only source from
which help actually comes?

Lmao

The point under discussion is not this anyway. If you have some evidence
that Eve ever asked God for any help for Adam then please produce it.

It she is the type that you wish to indicate exists then please show how she
was that type of intercessor.

Of course you cannot do so. I need a little more than your assumptions about
what might have happened and what Eve might have done.

So far you have not, in any way shown how Eve helps the argument that we
must ask people who are now dead to intercede for us with God.

I still await that brilliant argument.

Phil
.

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