Re: "I am both Muslim and Christian" Rev Ann Holmes Redding

In <9929be42-8ac1-4539-85c8-486367376c4d@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> nobody <whenareu@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:

On 8 Feb, 19:11, "Charles Lindsey" <c...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Peace be unto you........

And also to you.

No, not an Assumption - an established fact.


I was not talking about the manuscript containing the word twice, but
rather at "The Septuagint translates that into Greek in away which may
or may not be correct", so we must assume one position or the other
unless we take whole thing and can analyse to the original.

Whether the Septuagint translated the words of Exodus correctly or not has
little bearing on the meaning of what Jesus said, accordiong to John. It
is, as I said, a Red Herring.

It is also generally agreed, AIUI, that the Hebrew word for "I am" sounds
sufficiently similar to the word YHVH as to be regularly used as a
euphemism for it (but not the only such euphemism). The Jews would be well
familiar with that usage. Note also that this usage continues in English,
by rendering YHVH as "LORD" (in small caps).

Jews would be familiar with that usage, but it won't stop them from
misinterpreting something in order to find a reason that the people
would buy into in order to get rid of a man they despised.

And I gather that you accept that usage was widely used.


I never said people went around saying they existed before Abraham.

Which is nothing whatsoever to do with the point I was making, namely
that the hebrew word 'ehyeh' sounds sufficiently similar to likely
original vocalisations of YHVH that is was often used as a euphemism for
it (there were several such euphemisms, of which 'adonai' was the most
common). It also accords with the concept that YHVH himself was a
personification of the very concept of "being" or "existance", as seems to
be implied by the passage in Exodus (indeed it is even suggested that
'ehyeh' and 'YHVH' share the same etymological root).

We do not know exactly what Jesus said. Presumably he was speaking in
Aramaic, or maybe in Hebrew, or maybe using a bit of both (since his
listeners would be used to hearing the Law read in Hebrew).
I would think he preached mostly in Hebrew as his target audience was
the Jews.

What we DO know is that John translated whatever he said using the obvious
Greek words for "I am", and we have to work backwards from that. By the
simplest application of Occam's Razor, that means we must assume he used
the obvious Aramaic or Hebrew word for "I am"
Assumption 3

No. Established fact.

"that means we must ASSUME he used the obvious Aramaic or Hebrew word
for "I am"

We know exactly what words John wrote - it was the
normal words used to express the meaning that is normally expressed in
English as "I am", and doubtless every language on earth can express it in
a similarly straightforward way.

Yes I would think so, that other languages could also interpret it the
same straightforward way. John perhaps wrote it in a straightforward
way because Jesus said those words in a straightforward way in the
language which he spoke them in, thus he was not claiming divinity as
the straightforward way of saying such a term contradicts Exodus; we
already know the words in Exodus are claiming eternal existence before
and after.

The most likely words that Jesus used (speaking in hebrew, but here
rendered mostly in English) were
"Before Abraham was, eyheh"
of which the obvious translation into Greek would be
"Before Abraham was, ego eimi",
which is pecisely what John wrote.

I have already asked you whether you accept that Jesus actual words were
something pretty close to "Before Abraham was, eyheh", and if you do not
accept that, then what other suggestion do you have that would still
translate into Greek as "Before Abraham was, ego eimi"?

In both languages (and in English too) it is such a gramatical oddity that
it would not have been used without some special significance ('ehyeh' can
mean "I am", or "I will be", but never "I was").

At the very least, those words imply a claim to have been in existence as
a conscious being since before the time of Abraham, but the unusual tense,
and the known relationship between 'ehyeh' and the name of God/YHVH seem
clearly to indicate a much deeper claim which his listeners would have
recognised (and, by their reaction, seem to have recognised).


Assumption 4 based on assumption 2 and 3.

Yes, that is an Assumption, but the only one that I made. If you think
that is not a reasonable assumption (it seems a pretty obvious one), then
I invite you to suggest some alternative Hebrew (or Aramaic) phrase that
Jesus might have used and which John could plausibly have translated in
that way.

Like I have said before I don't understand ancient Hebrew nor a word
of Aramaic.

Nor me, which is why I have used a mixture of English, Greek and Hebrew to
explain my point.

Standard punishment for blasphemy... I have already posted my views why
the Jews rejected Jesus and wanted him dead, could you please or any
other Christian on this forum provide a logical answer for why the
Jews as said by the very words of Jesus according to the bible KILLED
and STONED the messengers sent unto them, were they all claiming
divinity and thus committing blasphemy?

None of those earlier messengers had claimed divinity, but there are other
way of committing blasphemy, and no doubt those who killed and stoned them
would have included blasphemy amongst the false accusations made against
them. And stoning was the proper punishment for quite a variety of crimes.

--
Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------
Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl
Email: chl@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K.
PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5
.

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