Re: "I am both Muslim and Christian" Rev Ann Holmes Redding

On 8 Feb, 19:11, "Charles Lindsey" <c...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
In <914ba2e0-ab1c-487e-827e-dc5b97f1e...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> nobody <whena...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:

On 1 Feb, 19:53, "Charles Lindsey" <c...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
We know exactly what it says in Exodus. It is the Hebrew word for "I am",
the same word used twice. The Septuagint translates that into Greek in a
way which may or may not be correct
Assumption 1


Peace be unto you........

No, not an Assumption - an established fact.


I was not talking about the manuscript containing the word twice, but
rather at "The Septuagint translates that into Greek in away which may
or may not be correct", so we must assume one position or the other
unless we take whole thing and can analyse to the original.


Every known hebrew manuscript of Exodus contains that word, twice. Or do
you know of a manuscript that contains some other word at that point?

But it is true the translation may or may not be correct. Then we
could also say the translation of Hebrew words into Greek text
rendered by the John in his gospel may or may not be correct.

Indeed, but if you think John's translation was in error, then you have to
come up with some other Hebrew phrase which he could plausibly have
translated in that way.

If the translation according to Greek Septuagint was identical either
in words or in meaning you probably would have been one of the first
to point that out and tell me the credentials of the translators and
that they know the language and have understanding of it, that is why
they are trusted to translate the scripture etc.

Now it is you who is making assumptions about what my position might have
been in some purely hypothetical circumstance :-( .

, but which apparently translates that
single Hebrew word in two ways. Presumably that reflects the way the
translators understood the meaning, or the best way to render that
presumed meaning into Greek.
Assumption 2

No, not an "assumption", a "presumption" (note the word that I used). The
correctness or otherwise of that presumption does not affect my basic
argument, though it might help to explain how the confusion we are
discussing came about.


Ok sorry about the technicality of the word, will say Presumption No
2.



It is also generally agreed, AIUI, that the Hebrew word for "I am" sounds
sufficiently similar to the word YHVH as to be regularly used as a
euphemism for it (but not the only such euphemism). The Jews would be well
familiar with that usage. Note also that this usage continues in English,
by rendering YHVH as "LORD" (in small caps).

Jews would be familiar with that usage, but it won't stop them from
misinterpreting something in order to find a reason that the people
would buy into in order to get rid of a man they despised.

And I gather that you accept that usage was widely used.


I never said people went around saying they existed before Abraham.


We do not know exactly what Jesus said. Presumably he was speaking in
Aramaic, or maybe in Hebrew, or maybe using a bit of both (since his
listeners would be used to hearing the Law read in Hebrew).
I would think he preached mostly in Hebrew as his target audience was
the Jews.

What we DO know is that John translated whatever he said using the obvious
Greek words for "I am", and we have to work backwards from that. By the
simplest application of Occam's Razor, that means we must assume he used
the obvious Aramaic or Hebrew word for "I am"
Assumption 3

No. Established fact.

"that means we must ASSUME he used the obvious Aramaic or Hebrew word
for "I am"

We know exactly what words John wrote - it was the
normal words used to express the meaning that is normally expressed in
English as "I am", and doubtless every language on earth can express it in
a similarly straightforward way.

Yes I would think so, that other languages could also interpret it the
same straightforward way. John perhaps wrote it in a straightforward
way because Jesus said those words in a straightforward way in the
language which he spoke them in, thus he was not claiming divinity as
the straightforward way of saying such a term contradicts Exodus; we
already know the words in Exodus are claiming eternal existence before
and after.


the terms used in John were translated, as being present in some form,
in a time which is stated (as in before Abraham) and that time ONLY
(thus the meaning of this term does not stretch to INFINITE past); and
the terms used in Exodus were translated (as according to Greek
Septuagint), as being present in the INFINITE PAST, present and the
INFINITE FUTURE.

I see nothing to suggest that the words existed or were used (other than
perhaps in God's foresight in the INFINITE past, or will still be of
interest in the INFINITE future. The only times of interest are from when
the hebrew language first came to being (round about the same as the time
of Abraham) up to the time of Jesus.

, unless we have good reason
to suppose otherwise.
Good reason provided above by translators of the text.
Which brings us straight back to the word used
(twice) in Exodus.

Using a theory which, presumes without established fact, and then in
the end you have to assume.


Assumption 4 based on assumption 2 and 3.

Yes, that is an Assumption, but the only one that I made. If you think
that is not a reasonable assumption (it seems a pretty obvious one), then
I invite you to suggest some alternative Hebrew (or Aramaic) phrase that
Jesus might have used and which John could plausibly have translated in
that way.

Like I have said before I don't understand ancient Hebrew nor a word
of Aramaic.

The translation I provided of the words was according to Strongs greek
lexicon.



The words used in the Septuagint are a Red Herring (though they do include
the words that John used, as well as some that he did not), since neither
was Exodus written in Greek, nor was Jesus speaking in Greek.


Exactly so you cant be sure either way.. one has to presume one way or
another, and then you look the man you such things is he really
claming divinity:

John 14:28 "my Father is greater than I"
John 5:30: "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and
my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of
the Father which hath sent me."
John 8:28-29 "...I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught
me, I speak these things. And he that sent me is with me: the Father
hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please
him."
John 20: 17 "I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and
your God"

Standard punishment for blasphemy... I have already posted my views why
the Jews rejected Jesus and wanted him dead, could you please or any
other Christian on this forum provide a logical answer for why the
Jews as said by the very words of Jesus according to the bible KILLED
and STONED the messengers sent unto them, were they all claiming
divinity and thus committing blasphemy?

I don't think that any Jew, other than Jesus himself, ever claimed
divinity. And if Jesus himself had claimed it falsely, then that would
have been blasphemous too. But we believe his claim was true.

The Old Testament is one long story of how the Jews always claimed to be
followers of God, and yet failed to follow his commandments, and were
still failing at the time of Jesus.

You just stated Jesus claimed divinity which itself is a presumption
against the very words of Jesus.

I asked you why did the Jews KILL and STONE, the messengers sent unto
them... is it because those messengers also claimed divinity?

Or was it because the Jews didn't really want the message do they
manipulated an excuse
to get rid of the messengers?

Just remember you sated the STANDARD punishment for blasphemy is death
and thus Jesus was stoned etc.
.

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