Re: Follow up to: "Ecclesial Communion, Conciliarity and Authority"

Tom Higgins wrote:

[Gareth McCaughan said, on "subject to"..]
But I don't see that you've proven, or even given evidence for,
your case that "subject to" can have the specific *very* different
meaning you've been arguing for

But I don't think that it is *very* different, I actually think that
my way of looking at, and the one you insist on, are actually very
similar -- except, perhaps, in how one *feels* about it.

I actually addressed that point in my previous posting, but you did
not reply to it:

[Suppose the pope says: "I tell you to avoid XYZ". One Catholic
might think, "Well, it's coming from the pope, and he's in charge,
so I better do what he says". And another might say "Oh, it's coming
from the pope, so that must be good advice, so I'll do what he
says". Both end up doing the same thing -- I.e. they *both* did what
the pope said to do ("were subject to") -- but they viewed the
relationship differently.]

The behaviour of the two is the same, though they may *feel*
differently about what they do.

And now another person thinks "How interesting that the Pope
should say that; but I disagree" and doesn't do it. That person's
behaviour is not the same as the others'. But what you've been
saying about the meaning of "subject to" implies that she, too,
is "subject to" the Pope on account of the Pope's good advice.

So no, it's not true that as far as behaviour goes your meaning
of "subject to" and the usual meaning are similar.

Even if it were, it's far from clear that looking at behaviour
is sufficient to determine whether one person is "subject to"
another. Consider, by way of analogy, the similar (but perhaps
more explicit) locution "controlled by", and let's apply it
to something simpler than a human being but still capable of
making something like decisions: a chess-playing machine,
perhaps. So, suppose we have three black boxes, all of which
are set up so that you can give them a chess position and
they'll make a legal move in that position. And suppose it
turns out that (1) boxes B and C always behave the same way,
and that (2) box B is controlled by box A. Does it follow
that box C is also controlled by box A? Nope, because the
real situation is that A and C Are running the same software,
whereas B is communicating with A by wi-fi, and programmed
to do whatever A tells it to.

[Gareth McCaughan said..]
I'm not sure why you *don't* see it as a significant difference :-).
I see it as significant simply because it seems to me that "X is
subject to Y" can (just about) mean "X chooses always to do what
Y advises" but can't (remotely) mean "Y gives good advice".

Let me trace out my train of thought:
Y gives good advice
So, doing what Y says leads to good outcomes
And, going against what Y says leads to bad outcomes
But, everyone wants good outcomes
So, X should choose to act consistently with Y's advice
Which is to say, X is subject to Y.

Which is *not*, in ordinary usage or in any other usage I've
seen any evidence of the existence of, to say that X is
subject to Y.

You keep saying that "subject to" has this meaning. You haven't
offered any evidence. So far as I can tell, it's something
you've just made up. You are, of course, free to make up
meanings for *your* use of language -- if you declare that
when you say "subject to" you mean "receiving good advice
from" then I'd better start interpreting it that way when
you use those words -- but you're making claims about how
other people use them, and you've just flatly stated those
claims and provided no evidence.

(I'm puzzled by the indirectness here. I *have* appealed
to "ordinary usage"; are you saying that you *don't*
think it a useful thing to appeal to, or not?

Sorry, I wrote too obscurely: Since we are trying to figure out what
"be subject to" means in the context of Unam Sanctam, I think there
is only a very, *very* limited value in appealing to how those words
might be taken, out of the context of Unam Sanctam, in a different
culture (I.e. here and now) about 700 years later.

In working out what "subject to" means in the context of
"Unam Sanctam", for instance, one might look at the rest
of "Unam Sanctam". Does it look as if it's making an
argument that the Pope gives good advice that everyone
would do well to heed, or as if it's arguing that the
Pope has power and authority of the sort that a dictator
or a military officer has?

The first. The second certainly doesn't come out of Unam Sanctam.

Except where it says that "the temporal sword is in the
power of Peter". And where it says that temporal power
is wielded "at the will and sufferance of the priest".
And where it says that "temporal authority [is] subjected
to spiritual power". And where it expresses the Pope's
authority in terms of "Whatsoever you shall bind on earth,
shall be bound also in heaven", calls it "power", and
speaks of "resisting" it.

If you think that this sort of language is, or ever was,
a good way of saying that the Pope gives expert advice
about how one ought to live, then I would be interested
to see some evidence for that.

You're still appealing to "ordinary usage". And then you provide a
long quote from Unam Sanctam where you do not appeal in the
slightest to the then-current historical situation, or the then-
existing theology, or the then-current theories of political power
in order to establish an interpretation.

Why, no, I don't. If you wish to argue that those things
give reason to think that U.S.'s talk of "power" and
"will and sufferance" and so on is really all about
the Pope's alleged ability to give good advice and
accurate information, then I suggest that you do so.

--
Gareth McCaughan
..sig under construc
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Follow up to: "Ecclesial Communion, Conciliarity and Authority"
    ... giving what is actually good advice. ... meaning behind the words may not be as limited as it seems.) ... Pope has power and authority of the sort that a dictator ... | power of Peter has not listened well to the word of the Lord ...
    (uk.religion.christian)
  • Re: Follow up to: "Ecclesial Communion, Conciliarity and Authority"
    ... might think, "Well, it's coming from the pope, and he's in charge, ... is "subject to" the Pope on account of the Pope's good advice. ... Newton says that the result will be bad ("do what I ... Pope has power and authority of the sort that a dictator ...
    (uk.religion.christian)
  • Re: Good stuff in the Koran
    ... I do not see why "kleinecke" wishes to restrict the meaning and application ... In this particular case the poster presented some advice (all of it ... proof texts frequently did not really support the advice. ... opinion about how to read the Qur'an. ...
    (soc.religion.islam)
  • Re: Hopefully simple question about DC power supplies
    ... a technical ignoramus, I know very little about power or cabling, so I ... 'rechargeable laptop battery pack'. ... So any advice would be ...
    (sci.electronics.basics)
  • Re: Follow up to: "Ecclesial Communion, Conciliarity and Authority"
    ... If I walk off a cliff, and fall down, and get badly injured, ... does that show that I was "subject" to Isaac Newton, ... be equally good advice. ... be subject to the pope" is usually *solely* seen by people as ...
    (uk.religion.christian)
Loading