Re: The Condition of the Church in the UK vs USA

Mark Goodge wrote:

There's a difference, though, between "supplied by" and "funded by".
Faith schools fall into the latter group, they are funded (partially)
by the state but the state doesn't actually supply them. In this
context, they're no different from all the other independent and
charitable organisations which provide services to the public and
receive at least part of their funding from the state. Youth clubs,
sports groups, arts organisations, ethnic minority groups, etc - all
of these have their own criteria for who may benefit from their
services and the government is happy to support them financially. Why
should schools be any different?

Because religious schools are (among other things) tools for
proselytizing, and arguably that's not a suitable use of the
government's money.

Arguably, yes, although I'd make at least one of your
counter-arguments :-)

However, in a sense it's true to say that *any* religious
organisisation is a tool for proselytising, and yet that doesn't stop
religious groups from being recipients of state funds in all the other
areas I mentioned.

I think at least some opponents of government funding for
religious schools would object to those things too, at least
in so far as they amount to funding proselytizing ...

You could argue that education is different, in
that it's fundamentally about instilling knowledge and opinions into
children in way that, say, a youth club or drama club is not. But the
counter-argument to that is that a state-funded faith school is still
partly controlled by the state, and that gives the state a certain
amount of influence in key areas such as the curriculum. By contrast,
a church-run youth group can be in receipt of grant funding and yet be
entirely committed to using the club primarily for the purpose of
converting the attenders to Christianity.

.... and I, at least, would be more opposed to government funding
for a group of that sort than to most government funding of
church schools.

(There might be cases where I'd still consider it worth while;
for instance, if the club were providing sufficient other benefits
to the people involved and if there were good reason to think that
no one else would be interested in doing likewise even if funded.)

(I've snipped the rest of your aguments, because I think you've
countered them yourself better than I could so I've got nothing to
add).

Ah, but do you have countercountercounterarguments for my counters
to my own counterarguments? :-)

Since race is one area where discrimination is illegal anyway then the
question of schools using it as the basis for selection wouldn't arise
under the current legislative framework.

Fair enough. (But we're talking about an imaginary more-libertarian
situation anyway, so who's to say that in that situation the laws
on racial discrimination mightn't be somewhat relaxed? :-) )

We've been over this before
in debates about anti-discrimination legislation in general, but in
the case of race I am generally persuaded that the harm prevented by
the legislation outweighs (and thus justifies) the harm done by the
legislation itself. Selecting on the basis of political position is an
interesting conundrum; I don't think it would be a good thing but, on
the other hand, I think it would be almost impossible to legislate
against. Some might argue that, given the predominence of left-wing
views in the teaching profession, there would be a strong and entirely
justified demand for schools which promised a more right-wing (or even
centrist) approach :-)

I wonder whether the predominance of left-wing views in the
teaching profession is factual. (It seems plausible, but
that's not the same thing.)

If lefties predominate among teachers, then I'd expect schools
with a rightist ethos to be worse on average because they're
having to select teachers from a substantially smaller pool.

--
Gareth McCaughan
..sig under construc
.

Relevant Pages

  • Universal School Choice - A Jewish position
    ... Rights Act of 1964 to include school choice as an EEO issue. ... the liberty of schools in hiring and provision of services. ... Denial of parental choice in education is the greatest government- ... Q. Will this legislation increase taxes? ...
    (soc.culture.jewish.moderated)
  • Re: Phil and the laundry/spoiler 9th June
    ... I assume that when the legislation was being drafted, ... decided to avoid getting into a barney with organised religion because ... But Grammar Schools are allowed to refuse you because you're not bright, and Public Schools because you're not rich. ... But workplaces are perfectly free to discriminate on grounds of ability, and all sorts of things in life are not available unless you pay for them. ...
    (uk.media.radio.archers)
  • Re: The Condition of the Church in the UK vs USA
    ... Faith schools fall into the latter group, ... we get selecting ... on the basis of race and teaching a particular (perhaps ... the legislation outweighs the harm done by the ...
    (uk.religion.christian)
  • Re: Phil and the laundry/spoiler 9th June
    ... legislation on sex discrimination. ... I assume that when the legislation was being drafted, ... decided to avoid getting into a barney with organised religion because ... But Grammar Schools are allowed to refuse you because you're not ...
    (uk.media.radio.archers)
  • Re: Help finding old router part
    ... of these schools get government funding so they can not do ... The private schools can do so. ... I had the part made at my local vocational school. ... Their practice is to charge $7 to $10 an hour (I forget ...
    (rec.woodworking)