Re: Follow up to: "Ecclesial Communion, Conciliarity and Authority"

Tom Higgins wrote:

[me:]
Oh, oops, I was unclear. I wasn't asking "to which of them
am I subject?" (as if difficulty in deciding would be a problem
for you), I was asking "would you really say I'm subject to
either of them?".

[Tom:]
Well, I think I understood what you wrote. But let me go back one
step to indicate (what I see as) the context: A statement like "must
be subject to the pope" is usually *solely* seen by people as
meaning the the pope is like some kind of military officer, or a
dictator. And I have been pointing out that "being subject to" is
capable of a different view -- that of listening to someone who is
giving what is actually good advice. (I'm trying to show that the
meaning behind the words may not be as limited as it seems.) ((Er,
and I give a warning that an attempt to explain very much about the
reasons why I think that may potentially balloon to an unreasonable
extent. Or may not.))

Yes, I understand that you're aiming to show that "subject to"
has a broader meaning than some critics of the RCC take it to
have. And of course I agree that those words can apply in cases
quite different from that of a dictator or a military officer.

But I don't see that you've proven, or even given evidence for,
your case that "subject to" can have the specific *very* different
meaning you've been arguing for, or that any such meaning has
been intended when the RCC has said things like "it is necessary
for salvation for every living creature to be subject to the
Roman Pontiff".

It's not in dispute (at least, not by me) that the relationship
of being-well-advised-to-heed-the-words-of is one that sometimes
occurs, and one that Protestants shouldn't be greatly offended
to tell they are in towards the Pope, and one that we could do
with a short way of expressing. But what I think you're claiming,
and what I don't think you've given any reason to believe, is
that "subject to" *is* a short way of expressing that, and that
it should be taken with that meaning in contexts like "Unam
Sanctam".

(Note: I'm saying vague things like 'contexts like "Unam
Sanctam"' rather than giving a specific list because I don't
remember whether there are places other than U.S. where
the RCC, or its official spokespersons, have said such
things.)

.. what you claimed earlier wasn't that we *should choose to
make ourselves" subject to those who give good advice, but that
we *are* subject to them.

But I'm not sure why you see that as a significant difference. What
I meant was that if you choose to jump off a cliff, against Newton's
advice, then you will die. If you prefer to live, you *should* be
subject to him. You can go against good advice, but the result, by
definition, will be bad -- so you shouldn't do it.

I'm not sure why you *don't* see it as a significant difference :-).
I see it as significant simply because it seems to me that "X is
subject to Y" can (just about) mean "X chooses always to do what
Y advises" but can't (remotely) mean "Y gives good advice".

I'm "subject to" gravitation, not to Newton or Einstein.

And I think that sense is too far removed from ordinary usage
to be useful.

Yes, I know that it is far removed. Perhaps it's the case that
people in general fail to figure out exactly what is implied by
words -- so if someone were to appeal to "ordinary usage", I might
not think it a useful thing to appeal to.

(I'm puzzled by the indirectness here. I *have* appealed
to "ordinary usage"; are you saying that you *don't*
think it a useful thing to appeal to, or not? And would
you care to be more specific about how people's failure
to figure out exactly what is implied by words makes it
unhelpful to appeal to ordinary usage when trying to
discover what a term means?)

What do you think determines the meaning of a term like
"subject to"? I'm guessing that you *don't* think that
it's determined by what meanings Tom Higgins can make up
and post to uk.r.c :-), so (by way of follow-up) on what
grounds do you think that "subject to" can plausibly be
taken to have the sort of meaning you've described?

In working out what "subject to" means in the context of
"Unam Sanctam", for instance, one might look at the rest
of "Unam Sanctam". Does it look as if it's making an
argument that the Pope gives good advice that everyone
would do well to heed, or as if it's arguing that the
Pope has power and authority of the sort that a dictator
or a military officer has? Well, here are a few excerpts
from which anyone may judge whether it's talking about
power and ruling and suchlike or about wisdom and good
advice.

| Certainly the one who denies that the temporal sword is in the
| power of Peter has not listened well to the word of the Lord
| commanding: 'Put up thy sword into thy scabbard' [Mt 26:52]. Both,
| therefore, are in the power of the Church, that is to say, the
| spiritual and the material sword, but the former is to be
| administered for the Church but the latter by the Church; the
| former in the hands of the priest; the latter by the hands of
| kings and soldiers, but at the will and sufferance of the priest.
|
| However, one sword ought to be subordinated to the other and
| temporal authority, subjected to spiritual power. For since the
| Apostle said: 'There is no power except from God and the things
| that are, are ordained of God' [Rom 13:1-2], but they would not
| be ordained if one sword were not subordinated to the other and
| if the inferior one, as it were, were not led upwards by the other.
....
| This authority, however, (though it has been given to man and is
| exercised by man), is not human but rather divine, granted to
| Peter by a divine word and reaffirmed to him (Peter) and his
| successors by the One Whom Peter confessed, the Lord saying to
| Peter himself, 'Whatsoever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound
| also in Heaven' etc., [Mt 16:19]. Therefore whoever resists this
| power thus ordained by God, resists the ordinance of God

If you find yourself able to read this sort of thing and
take it to be describing only the sort of authority that
Isaac Newton, by virtue of his insight into physics, has
over everyone who might be in danger of falling off a cliff
or misjudging the navigation of a spacecraft -- well, then
I admire your mental flexibility but am not altogether sorry
not to share it.

--
Gareth McCaughan
..sig under construc
.

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