Re: Where did the Labels come from?

On 28 Dec, 17:49, Steve Cleary <steve.cle...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Tue, 25 Dec 2007 16:01:06 -0800 (PST), nobody

<whena...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
When something is written by man, we know somehow it is written by man
as because when you put the text under scrutiny you would find in it
discrepancies within the message it portrays.

Do you believe that the Qu'ran is perfect in every way? Reality is not
as simple as you try to make out. There are three basic categories of
contradictions in the Qur'an:

Verses contradicting each other or the laws of logic
Verses contradicting the facts of history or science
Verses contradicting the earlier revelations

Which ones do you care to debate? Take your pick.


1 you tend to lie what the quran says.
2 you see the words that in the text and then try to make out as
though they don't exist

Islam teaches every child is born a Muslim and after birth it is the
parents who make the child a hindu, jew etc. i.e. in a hindu family
the child starts believing that the idol his parents worship is god,
because that child sees his/her parents worship that idol; same
process with other religions.

How do you explain the thousands of Muslims who are turning to Christ
if this is the case?

Like I said parents or someone else makes then hindu, Christians etc.


Today modern science tells us the universe was about the big bang
theory, and that the universe is still expanding.

And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily,
it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)

The first Qur'anic verse cited as evidence of the Big Bang is Soorat
al-Anbiyyaa 21:30. The key part is "have not the disbelievers seen
that as-Samaawaati ("the heavens") wa ("and") al-Arda ("the earth")
kaanataa ("were") ratqan ("sewn [together]") fa ("then") fataqnaahumaa
("we ripped them").
When you sown together then ripped, what does that mean... the big bang
was something at one point it started from somewhere, the if you
consider if the universe was wrapped and then unraveled (by the big
bang) to what it is today.


What this is a reference to is not clear (though it does seem to be
quite similar to numerous other creation myths that have the heavens
and earth being separated by various deities, such as Kronos, Vishnu,
Pan Gu, et cetera). The polemic attempts to correlate the
ripping/separating with the Big Bang, but the problem with such
exegesis is that if we accept that interpretation, then the verse is
clearly stating that the earth was in existence before the Big Bang,
which would be a gross error.

It says something like sewn together. And are telling me the big bang
occurred out of nothing.

The actual fact of the matter is that
the earth did not come into existence until billions of years after
the Big Bang.


So what

The second verse called to witness by those who claim the Qur'an spoke
of the Big Bang is found in Soorat az-Zaariyaat 51:47. Those who
support the Big Bang polemic translate the verse roughly along the
lines of "and the heavens we created with power, and verily we are
expanding them."

In case you hadn't realised, the Big Bang is as much a theory as the
assertion that God created heaven and earth in six literal days six
thousand years ago

well it is a theory supported by the Quran. And if it is still
expanding it had a starting point hence it was sewn together and then
ripped open.

Six literal days is supported by your bible which says god had a rest
on the 7th, why did he have a rest because he got tired?




The bible gives you a simple test to apply upon the one who claims his
revelation is divine...

1 John 4 1-3
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see
whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out
into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every
spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is
from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from
God.

On this test, Islam fails. To acknowledge Jesus means to acknowledge
who He is - the eternal Son of God made flesh, who died for our sins,
was raised from the dead and ascended into heaven, who will come again
as judge and reign eternally. Which part of this do you acknowledge
and believe?


once again you tell me the theory... where did Jesus say I am god, or
ask people to worship him, or even where did Jesus says he is the god
of Moses, he is the god of Noah.

Islam is the only non-Christian religion to testify that Jesus is the
messiah,

And fails to appreciate what being the Messiah means.


Messiah are many in the bible. Just look at my other post. Solomon,
David etc.

we believe he was born miraculously,

And fail to appreciate the source and means of His conception.

we believe god raised him alive,

Really? So Jesus died, did He?


Where did I say he DIES or DIED, I said raised alive.

Muslims believe Jesus was not crucified but was raised bodily to
heaven by God before He was crucified. God gave someone Jesus'
appearance, causing everyone to believe that Jesus was crucified. Who
was this someone? Judas? The basis of any of these beliefs is the
following verse in the Qur'an:

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary,
the Messenger of Allah";- BUT THEY KILLED NOT, NOR CRUCIFIED HIM,
but so IT WAS MADE TO APPEAR TO THEM, and those who differ therein are
full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to
follow, FOR OF A SURETY THEY KILLED HIM NOT: Nay, Allah raised him up
unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

--[Qur'an 4:157]

How does this differ from the account given in the Injil?


Are trying to say it is the same as the bible, if so read above
again.

we believe he will return in the end of time.

For what purpose in your view?

Well 1. to tell you as in
Matthew 7:22
Many will say to me (Jesus) in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not
prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in
thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them,
I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
2. to kill the anti-christ/dajjal.
.

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