Re: Original Sin

Hi again! Trying to clarify a few points...

I've left the old stuff in to follow the thread. I may have to start a
new post next time.

In message
<9c84cfa8-9ab2-4de8-adbf-7edb4139e7f8@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
nobody <whenareu@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes
On 25 Nov, 22:33, Michael J Davis <?...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
In message
<2b217ff5-c294-4fa5-9a59-f72d3558f...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
nobody <whena...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes

Exactly that is what i am saying.

Islam teaches you only pay for what YOU have done. every molecule of
good you do will be in you account and and every molecule of evil will
be in your account, that is ultimate justice. but also states god is
forgiving and if the wrong doing repent they shall bes saved.

Which is, sadly, where you and your wonderful co-religionists fail to
understand the message of Christ.

You see, we were created to be perfect. ("Be perfect as your heavenly
Father is perfect!")

So why are some people born handicapped if we are created perfect.

eh? I am not talking about physical differences compared with some
'ideal' concept, but about lack of holiness.

But as soon as we sin (or are led into sin) then the accuser has in
effect won! No amount of our doing good can eliminate one bad act, for
that stain remains in the universe.

who leads you to sin?

Me usually.

Is it yourself or are you tempted by the devil who shows you the
wonders of this world?

I am fully aware of the nature of temptation, and the efforts of the
evil one to lead me astray. But I do not need to find someone else on
whom to blame by sinning. - Indeed the act of blaming another rather
than accepting personal responsibility is one of the consequences of
original sin. (see Gen 3:12)

I am not asking you to blame the devil.

I am just saying the devil opens the doors and you by your own free
will walk though them.

It seems to me that saying 'the devil opens the doors' is blaming the
devil, albeit, partially.

And due to that you would be held accountable for your sins.

OK, forget the devil, though - I am accountable for my own sins, yes.

Accountable means being subject to justice. Justice requires -
a) admission of guilt
b) punishment [1]
c) satisfaction (to remove the damage eg. repay the money I
stole, with interest.)

[1] In the UK legal system we confuse punishment with four
aspects of sentencing, that confuse the issue:- Protection of
victims, punishment, rehabilitation and example.

The person wronged may, or may not forgive. That is their choice. I (as
the wrongdoer) have no right to demand that I am forgiven, even though I
have borne the punishment and made satisfaction.

No amount of good can remove a bad act? What if god forgives you for
that bad act following your sincere repentance.

Let me put it like this. I lend you my brand new car, asking you to take
care of it. Unfortunately, you decide to speed and crash it, requiring a
new suspension. Even if you get it completely repaired and then return
it to me, saying "I'm sorry, I had an accident that was my fault; but
I've repaired it, and here it is."

Even if it looks as good as new, is it the same as not having been
damaged in the first place? Can I present it to someone else as a new
car?

In my view, nothing can put the clock back, not even God's forgiveness,
you have still crashed my car.
But in Jesus, Christians see that in a sense 'the clock is put back' and
we are made new. (See 2 Cor 5:17).

Now that's the difference you are not god.

I thought the whole point of forgiveness is you having a clean slate.

No forgiveness is about something not being held against you. There is
also the issue of satisfaction - that's the point I was trying to make
about the car.

Firstly, one of the differences between your view and mine is that you
see sin as not affecting other people. As I understand it, sin damages
God's perfect world, and has inevitable consequences. As an extreme
example, our lack of care for the planet - given into our stewardship by
God - is damaging the environment and everyone in the world will be
affected by it. On a smaller scale, once someone is caught stealing,
they may repay the theft, apologise, and be forgiven, but their
immediate circle will remember that and never be able to trust them in
the same way again. That one event has damaged their relationships, and
made others less open and perhaps less trustful of others too.

You see, even just one sin damages the fabric of society. So being
forgiven - even by God (as I understand you see it) isn't enough!

Whereas you are saying removing the sin like it never happened, but
then say you can't put the clock back, once the sin is done its done.
What are you telling me god will have no record of you doing a evil
deed? Because they are not being recorded?

No, as I say above, just because the effects of that sin ripple outwards
and damage both human relationships and our relationship with God.
Forgiveness by God (who is wronged by our sin[2]) does not remove the
'punishment' due to us nor the effects of our wrong actions.

[2] For instance, I cannot understand why a Sharia court
continues to punish a wrongdoer, even though they have admitted
guilt and begged forgiveness. Does not a Sharia court exist to
apply God's righteousness, mercy and justice?

But the difference here is we Muslims hope god will forgive us ,
whereas you yourself pass judgment that you are forgiven.

Not at all - I am assured that Jesus has died for my wrongdoing.

Note, that in order to accept God's forgiveness in Jesus - I have to
admit my responsibility and repent of my sin, and accept Jesus' free
gift of salvation.

It isn't about the mediocre approach "I must do a little more good than
bad", for that lets down God's perfection, and enables the enemy or
accuser a free rein.

No we are called to perfection, and the only one who can restore us to
perfection is God Himself.

I have asked many Moslems - "How does God deal with sin?" and while all
agree it is a good question, none has yet been able to give me an
answer.

You have asks this questioned many times and I have answered it many
times. I don't know if it not good enough.

So this time briefly

Muslims believe sincere repentance for the bad that they have done can
lead to forgives from god.

Forgiveness does not REMOVE sin, it may mean that it is not held against
me, but it still exists - the enemy (ie Satan) has *won* - the sin
exists - the damage done is still there.

The Jews used to have a rite on the Day of Atonement, when the people
confessed their sin and which was 'heaped upon' (metaphorically) a goat
or lamb, which was then cast out into the desert to perish. That was how
they recognised God's forgiveness and dealt with sin.

But each year they had to repeat this ceremony as it did not deal with
sin once and for all.

But in Jesus, we see God dealing with our sin - He takes it upon Himself
- all the punishment, all the damage, all the pain, and dies in our
place. He then rises from that death and says, "You are free, I have
stood in your place, now the enemy has no hold on you!" And because He
is God - there is no one who can hold my sin against me.

I remember a great evangelist Jimmy Swaggart onec said the bigger the
sin the bigger the redemption

Yes, that is the wonder of Jesus' sacrifice for us!

So no one can hold Hitler's sin against him?

Only the One who is Judge of all. "Judge not that ye be not judged" said
Jesus.

Yet you judge and say metaphorically you will be given heaven, but yet
no judgment by god has been passed on you.

Oh! No I don't! Like you I am in the hands of God - I am entirely
dependent upon the Judgement that will be passed upon me. However, I
have *Faith* that Jesus is Lord and that His Word will stand, I have
*Hope* in the mercy of God because of what Jesus has done for me. That
is all; to claim that I can enter heaven is to take too much upon
myself.

What I do *not* do is to say, I have done 'good' therefore my sins have
been cancelled out. (For what 'good' can I do, compared with the
goodness of God?)

Incidentally, are Muslims mistaken when they think that dying for Jihad
(as in suicide bombers) 'guarantees' paradise?

You see man is coward by nature even when Adam was asked why did he
eat from the tree he said it was the women; he was in essence saying
he is innocent. Just like that you are not willing to carry the 'buck'
for your own sin so you have to come up with this fairy tail story to
think you are saved.

I have to carry the responsibility of my own sin, in order to admit my
sinfulness. Only in that way can I ask my heavenly Father for
forgiveness. I think both Muslims and Christians agree on that.

Yes

Where we differ is in understanding that Jesus has carried my punishment
- and *if I accept Him as Lord and saviour* my sin is forgiven and wiped
clean. You think you have to earn your forgiveness by working at it.

You see if Jesus has already been punished for your sins, then why
does the devil still tempt you?

That is a very good question. The answer is that God has not taken away
my 'free will', so I can still fail. (Indeed, I still fail to a greater
or lesser extent each day, even without external temptation.) Life is a
series of choices that take us 'closer' to perfection or away from it.
However, this is the ideal...

Is he stupid?

.... no, but he knows that a series of small steps can take us closer to
the edge of the cliff, until the final one is inevitable.

If I am to believe you then all your sins, past, present, and future
have been accounted for by Jesus.

Yes, and yours too! But unless I repent of each and every one, and
acknowledge that Jesus has redeemed me, then I am still under judgement.
That's why I must not presume on His mercy. If I think that my actions,
my good deeds, are saving me, then I presume too much.

Why doesn't the devil just quit on you as no matter what sin you
commit it wont be held against you.

Again, I still need to repent. The enemy wants to persuade me that I
can't sin, that I won't sin, but see...

HEALTH WARNING!

At this point I think that you and I are probably at cross-purposes. For
I suspect that by 'sin' *you* mean something that is forbidden by the
Qur'an; whereas by 'sin' *I* mean that which is not done in the
perfection of love. (See Matt 19:16-22)

You see, knowing the wonder and greatness and generosity of God's love,
I am called to be *perfect*. Not to be perfect is to sin. And I am
selfish, self opinionated, and rude. I do not love everybody as myself.
I keep too much money, and find excuses for so doing. So I have a long
way to go to be perfect.

You are still tempted because you be held accountable and this verse
in the bible testifies to that:

Ezekiel 18:20
"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment
for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for
the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon
himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

Take that verse in context please. It is about the bad man who repents
and turns to good, and the evidence of his good deeds is what saves him
(remember this is *before* Jesus) and the good man who *knows* what is
good, but does bad things. So that man is culpable. In both cases it is
not the father or the sin, it is the individual who is responsible.


Why did god just not forgive us rather than having to die himself in
order to forgive us? you might say he had to show us how much he loved
us? (if something please do make it known)

Jesus said, 'no greater love has man than to die for his friends'; in
dying for us, He shows us real friendship. What more could He do?

Perhaps say he is god literally.

Mathew 27:21-23
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of
heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in
your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many
miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from
me, you evildoers!'

Who does Jesus say get away from me you evildoers, not the Muslim,
Jews, etc but the Christians because the Christians are the ones who
call Jesus "lord"; then why does he say this get away from me? This is
because you took him as lord rather than the one he came to glorify.

I understood that Muslims, too, believe that Jesus will be the judge at
the end of the world?

So Jesus is addressing those who call Him Lord, but who *fail* to do
what He and the Father have commanded. Certainly. That is why we must
all be on our guard to do God's will.

This is said unto the Christians for this is what you have done...

No, *this* is said of *all* mankind - about those who close their mind
to the message of God.

Romans 1

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the
godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their
wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because
God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's
invisible qualities-- his eternal power and divine nature-- have been
clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are
without excuse. For...
when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were
thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish
heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became
fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image
made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and
creeping things.

I think you misunderstand - it's a problem with C16th English.

You changed the image of the god which was unseen and uncorrectable to
the image of a man.

It means that they worshipped corruptible things (as man is corruptible)
like images of man, and beasts and birds. Take the Egyptian and Greek
and Roman gods, for example. The NIV translation is better...

"Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the
glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and
birds and animals and reptiles." Rom 1:22-23

Yes, indeed, talking again about the fact that *without Jesus* no one
can do good. Jesus, whom we worship as God, is also a man, and not an
*image* of a man.

And Romans continues and gives out a threat for the doing such a evil
deed, it states...

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their
women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman,
burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that
which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of
their error which was meet.

Romans is a long and thorough book. It is important that you read
through from chapter one to, at least, chapter 8, to include...

The written law cannot save us. For if we live by the book then we will
be judged by the book, and any failure then condemns us.

Only Faith in God can save us In fact *nothing* we can do can save us.

God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still
sinners, Christ died for us. (Rom 5:8)

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ
Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me
free from the law of sin and death. Rom 8:1-2

And at the end of Chapter 8 ( I recommend) is the most marvellous
explanation, where he shows that God is on *our* side, not condemning
us, but saving us...

"If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own
Son, but gave him up for us all-- how will he not also, along with him,
graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those
whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies." Rom 8:31-33

and...

"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor
demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither
height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to
separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Rom 8:38-39

Yes, indeed, Romans is a wonderful exposition of the nature of man and
of our need and deliverance by Jesus. Do read it, but read all - and do
get a decent translation!

[...]
So I ask you again, if each is to die for his own sin, how does the God
of Islam deal with it?

Now that is a question you have to ask god... if no answer comes
directly then we just will have to wait till the day of reckoning.

Don't you think that God, in His mercy, might *already* have told us?

Blessings

Mike

[The reply-to address is valid for 30 days from this posting]
--
Michael J Davis
http://www.trustsof.demon.co.uk
<><
For this is what the Lord has said to me,
"Go and post a Watchman and let
him report what he sees." Isa 21:6
<><
.

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