Re: Who made God?

Andrew McMullon wrote:

[me:]
If he exists, sure. What I mean is that I can't see any grounds
for thinking that the existence, or the coming-into-existence,
or the having-always-existed, of our universe is any more
surprising or improbable than that of a being of sufficient
power and complexity to design, create, and rule that universe.

[Andrew:]
And that is exactly the point I was making - and it works both ways,
contra what some of my atheist friends claim. Just because the
universe may have that sort of existence doesn't in any way mean that
God can't have it as well (or instead of).

Of course. Does anyone argue "The universe is the right sort of
thing to be 'self-existent'; therefore there is no God"? That
would seem very strange to me.

I think that if I were an atheist I would probably agree with you -
which takes us back to the mystery of why some people believe and some
don't.

Well, do you have any reasons for not agreeing with me?

I don't think that I have any that you would accept. My reasons
are exactly that -*my* reasons. They are my interpretation of my
experience of life and *to me* what makes most sense of that is
the assumption of God's existence.

It seems to me (and I'm speaking partly from my own experience
here!) that this sort of thing is fertile ground for self-deception.
That is, it's easy to say (honestly, so far as it goes) "I believe
in God because that belief helps to make sense of everything for me"
when you haven't in fact attempted the (terribly arduous and subtle)
task of comparing your God-belief with its main rivals and seeing
how well they explain "everything".

I used to quote C S Lewis about believing in Christianity "as I
believe that the sun has risen" (i.e., because its light enables
you to see everything else), and it seemed like wisdom, but
I found when I looked more closely at particular things that
in fact Christianity tended to explain them *less* well than
(for instance) materialist atheism, and I now think that my
assessment was based not on some sophisticated intuitive
evaluation of a huge body of subtle evidence, but on prejudice
and force of habit and rationalization. (I don't mean that I
had *no* actual evidence for Christianity; only that it wasn't
as good as I thought it was, and that my grand claims that
Christianity provided a better overarching explanation for
Everything were claims I wasn't entitled to make.)

Now, of course, I am not you and haven't seen what's inside
your head, and I'm certainly not accusing you of doing the
same as me; I'm just inviting you to consider whether you're
really as good at that large-scale intuitive evaluation thing
as you think you are. I think most of us are much worse at
such things than we think.

There's another way in which reasons can be "*my* reasons"
and not transferrable to someone else: they may be based on
some experience you literally can't describe. I think there's
fertile ground for self-deception there too, but I don't
think it's what you're talking about so I shan't elaborate.

(For the avoidance of doubt: I am not, even slightly, claiming
to be free from self-deception and bias and suchlike myself.)

... Actually, from what you go on to say it sounds like
you *do* agree with me:

It's one of those yes and no situations.....

Nothing is ever *really* both yes and no. But of course
it can easily be "yes to this bit and no to that bit".

In what way is God's existence self-evident?

It is something that has always made more sense to me than the
opposite - and I don't mean made sense in specific rational sense
either. I think belief in God is a-rational (not irrational) because
it operates at a much deeper level. To me "s'obvious i'nit" but I
recognise that other people don't 'feel' like that at all.

To me this is something fundamental at the theist/atheist divide
though it doesn't help me makes sense of those who claim very rational
grounds for moving across the divide - in either direction.

What do you mean by "it operates at a much deeper level"?
Something like "My belief in God comes from some kind of
decision-making process that isn't conscious or accessible
to conscious examination"? If so: How much do you trust that
decision-making process, and why?

I think God's existence is an "explanation" for life, the
universe, and everything, only in a very weak and (to my
mind) not very useful sense. Because God, being God and
therefore (1) able to do anything and (2) of deeply mysterious
purposes, can be used to explain just about *anything*, and
what really makes an explanation useful is that it tells you
something about what it explains.

I'll grant you (2) but not (1) because I think there are lots of
things that God can't do - and those are the sorts of things that help
explain many of the difficulties raised to belief in God. He can't be
untrue to Himself, for example or alter fundamental principles of
right and wrong (actually I think that's the same thing).

I agree that a much-less-than-omnipotent god could be easier to
believe in than the traditional omnipotent (or nearly omnipotent)
sort. However, I don't think the particular restriction you've
mentioned helps much...

And ultimately, I think you've twigged this, there is far more
agreement between us across the theist/atheist divide than many people
admit. I'm fundamentally a theistic humanist who believes that God
has put us here to find our own purpose (aka explanation or meaning)
to life, the universe and everything.

Understood.

--
Gareth McCaughan
..sig under construc
.

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