Re: New A C Grayling book

In message <469ab4f4$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, michaeld <michaeld@xxxxxxxxxx> writes
Michael J Davis wrote:

[...]

>I think it's important to distinguish between what evolution *requires*
>and what evolution *justifies*. There may be features of humanity that are
>not in themselves actually needed (or useful) for survival, but are a
>natural *by-product* of features that are. As such these could still be
>explained in the context of evolution.

Yes, understood. (But I find it fascinating that some things that are
evolutionarily 'neutral', at some later point, become extremely 'useful'
- it's as though they were stored up for later use!)

Yes - but this phenomenon is not at all unique to evolution. There are
numerous examples of pieces of technology having totally unexpected
applications given the original motivation for their invention. With
hindsight it may look like the potential was always there, stored up for
later use.

Yes, I take that point. Like, I suppose, dinosaurs' insulation proving useful for flight, I'll consider that further.

[...]

>3) Therefore it's not at all surprising that this skill of abstraction is
>not limited by what is concretely useful for survival.

Yes, but the abstraction of abstraction - as you and I are doing now[1]
- is a really long way from even quite sophisticated physical survival
and even tribal bonding stuff.

[1] Just think. We are using abstract 'ideas' several times removed from
'tangible reality', using ideas that were converted into sounds that
conveyed the idea, that were converted into writing that represents the
sounds, and which I am now seeing on the screen. In looking at these
words, they relate to the sounds that relate to the idea that relates to
a meaning the memory of which I am recalling in my mind into which they
fall into a logical structure that suggests that you and I are sharing
similar thoughts. And boy - does that contribute to me survival!! ;-)

The sophistication and potential of the human brain does indeed appear to
be massive overkill from the point of view of what is required to aid
survival. But sometimes I think overkill solutions are the simplest and
most natural way to achieve a particular goal.

'To achieve a particular goal'? But that's the point - who defines to goal?

[...]

>I bet the skill of abstraction is key to both and that it's been around a
>lot longer than 40,000 years. It seems likely the emergence of language
>(in the modern sense of language) around 40,000 years ago was a cultural
>effect not a result of a significant change in our biology - similar to
>the emergence of advanced and deep mathematics in the last few centuries.
>I think we had the skills all along but just weren't using them in their
>full glory - because such was not directly required for survival.

Yes, but that sounds dangerously ontological!

In what way? (And why would being ontological be dangerous?)

Were I arguing[1] that the process of evolution be somehow directed [2], then the idea that human skills that were formed due to primitive survival pressures are so sophisticated that they enable these abilities of literature and maths and science to be revealed, then it looks as though there was a reason for their being developed.

'Dangerous' - because the premise is that once we suggest a 'cause' for developing skills we have to identify the source of that cause.

Mike


[1] And I might be!

[2] But not 'Intelligent design'!!
[The reply-to address is valid for 30 days from this posting]
--
Michael J Davis
http://www.trustsof.demon.co.uk
<><
For this is what the Lord has said to me,
"Go and post a Watchman and let
him report what he sees." Isa 21:6
<><
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Commentary: Evolution: theory not fact
    ... Evolution as if it was a fact. ... nothing is certain and the only sort of thing in science ... How did the observer classify broken eggs? ... Simple counting is theoretical --- there's a huge leap of abstraction ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: 7DRLPC Thread - Reviews, YAVPs, Bug Reports
    ... Others are more obscure - skills are ... unlocked by meeting certain evolution requirements. ... Combat with angered foes can be done with normal ... as you walk you transition from terrain to terrain. ...
    (rec.games.roguelike.misc)
  • Re: Science Disproves Evolution
    ... series proceeding from the simple to the complex, intercalating ... evolution explains exactly how or when humans entered the picture. ... 20 years ago they had lost the skills - because the people that had the skills were no longer there and the records get scanter and scanter by the year. ...
    (rec.arts.books)
  • Re: New A C Grayling book
    ... In message, michaeld writes ... >accomplishments that the skill goes *way* beyond just that. ... and what evolution *justifies*. ... the emergence of advanced and deep mathematics in the last few centuries. ...
    (uk.religion.christian)
  • Re: Science Disproves Evolution
    ... Re: Science Disproves Evolution ... series proceeding from the simple to the complex, ... 20 years ago they had lost the skills - ...
    (rec.arts.books)