Re: Ah! Women not allowed by RCC to sing in church!
- From: Michael J Davis <?.?@trustsof.demon.co.uk>
- Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 10:53:49 +0100
In message <8WJhi.9850$KE1.6219@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, 1st Century
Apostolic Traditionalist UK.RC <broadband@[remove].invalid> writes
"Tony Gillam" <tony.gillam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist UK.RC
But that is no longer a concern since the 1st Century, as those daysI don't see a time-specific definition there, merely a reference to an
have gone, there are no more 'prophesies' to be uttered, either by
man or woman.
1 Corinthians 13:8 "If there are prophecies, they will be done away
with. If there are tongues, they will cease."
unspecified future time. How do you justify your assessment of the end of
the 1st Century?
The Apostle Paul clearly predicted that "when that which is perfect is come,
then that which is in part shall be done away". (1 Cor. 13:10). "That which
is in part" refers to the 'Spirit-gifts', which had been given singly to
particular brethren only, not to everyone.
It is fascinating Jeff, to see how your prejudices (and, I assume, poor
teachers) have blinded you even to the words of Scripture.
"For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. "
1 Cor 13:9-10 (NIV)
He then says...
"Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts,
especially the gift of prophecy." 1 Cor 14:1
Why would he say that Jeff if, as you say, the day of doing away with
prophecies is imminent? Surely that day - of doing away with prophecies
- is when the Lord returns?
Why do you think that the Church was so keen to include these writings
into the 'New Testament' if they were already out of date and no longer
relevant? Did the Church make a mistake by including them? If so, Jeff,
you are clearly wrong in following the Church's teaching? Isn't that so?
The context shows that "that which is perfect", is the mature knowledge of
faith, hope and love.( vv11-13). This knowledge would come when the New
Testament, was complete and when people read and studied it.
And where does it say that in the Bible, Jeff? In what way do we see
this fullness of love in the world around us? see for instance, 2 Tim
1:10. What's Paul saying here...
[This grace] ... has now been revealed through the appearing of our
Saviour, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and
immortality to light through the gospel.
Here he is not saying that the Gospel is the life and the light, but it
is revealed through the gospel. Jeff, take your eyes off the printed
words - Holy though they be - and raise them to the living freedom you
find In Jesus Christ.
Then you will find "What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound
teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus." 2 Tim 1:13
The availability of the Biblical knowledge came after the last book,
The Revelation, was communicated to the last surviving Apostle, John, on the
island of Patmos, about AD 96-7, (Revelation 1:9)
When John died soon after, the power to impart the 'Spirit-gifts' ceased and
the Bible, wonderfully able to bring believers into maturity of faith, hope
and love, was complete,
(or 'perfect'), and available to all. (2 Timothy 3:14-17).
Oh dear, Jeff, you repeat this stuff parrot fashion according to the
misleading teachings you've received. Just *think* about it!
Since the Bible was not available at that time (Even the synoptic
gospels were only being gathered then) it is quite clear that what Paul
calls 'holy writings' (especially as he's talking about Timothy's
infancy) will be referring to the Hebrew scriptures. (i.e. the Old
Testament to you).
Anyway where in the Bible does it say these things will die out with
It follows that when the last recipient of the 'Spirit-gifts' died, then the
Spirit-gifts "ceased, failed, vanished away, was done away", as the Apostle
Paul predicted. ( 1 Corinthians 13:8-10).
I cannot see that it follows at all. It makes nonsense of Jesus' claim
to be 'with you always' doesn't it? Why do you think Jesus worked
miracles, Jeff? What's His point?
History is silent about anyone subsequently having miraculous powers,
I'm not clear how you expect to hear 'History' if you ignore the
'claims'!! I expect your ears are full of sand. Perhaps you can
However, when Christ comes to "restore again the Kingdom to Israel", the
'spirit-gifts' will be given to His resurrected, approved and glorified
No, Paul's WHOLE point is that THEN they will NOT be needed. Where does
Paul say the gifts will be restored when Jesus returns.
Until that day comes we do well to seek after the 'gifts' of faith, hope,
obedience to God's commands which prove our LOVE for Him.
No one can object to faith, hope, and love, Jeff. But first accept His
love for you, and stop trying to earn your own salvation....
[The reply-to address is valid for 30 days from this posting]
Michael J Davis
For this is what the Lord has said to me,
"Go and post a Watchman and let
him report what he sees." Isa 21:6
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