Re: Its not just Catholic priests...They aren't Baptised either!

On 2007-05-25, Paul <pgrieg@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Useful in what way? As pressure is suffering then by exploring with
pressuree you are following the opath of the Buddha and follwing the
Golden Rule (if you also put no pressure on others).

I was thinking of external pressure to believe. I find that in many church
environments, unless I blend in and "look Christian" which doesn't help
anyone.

I'm not sure this 'cumin and feel the music' approach is a good one.
You are likely to get a chilli response.

Indeed. In some cases I have done.

Doesn't any author or speaker put pressure on you in attempting to get
you to believe his point of view? So to avoid all such pressure you
would need to isolate yourself from all external human input.
Meditation might help -- oops there I go putting pressure on you :-)

Everyone wishes to some extent that "if only others believe as I do".
Acceptance that "different things work for different people" seems rarer
in religion.

You said "Meditation might help". You may have said "I found that
meditation helped me". You didn't say "You will be burned in hell if
you don't meditate" or "You must meditate". You don't offer 'friendship'
above what would be expected in two people just meeting, including going
out of your way to be where I am only to tell me how meditation is
better than what else I may be doing.

We don't have a formula where we meet where we repeatedly say how lax
we have been in our lack of meditation, state how we believe that there
is one meditation, lotus position not kneeling, then promise ourselves
that we will do better. We don't call ourselves the chosen ones because
we meditate, implying that anyone visiting who is not part of the group
may not be so special, may not be saved...

I don't think you've told me to get lost and shut up until I correct
my views on meditation. OK, this is rarer. In the field most Christians
seem moderate, some quite happy that someone can find another way that
works for them even though it is not Christianity. In all religions
there is the full scale from ultra-moderate to ultra-fundamentalist. I
wonder what the different distribution graphs for each religion would
look like.

Or are you saying that exposing myself to that pressure, and the
potential for stress, is a good thing? Learning the hard way to detach
from it?

Only you can determine that. Maybe the Buddha could detach himself
from the boredom of an average church service :-)

With the help of modern technology, an MP3 player, or a good book he may
be able to. Either that or close your eyes and meditate, or as hinted
in the 'Gita he could apply himself fully to the service but not be
emotionally attached to it. Just think "That seems good", "That seems
bad", "That seems to work for these people" and so forth. Maybe he could
have an interesting discussion with the vicar afterwards. (I've done
that. Response varies depending on vicar)

I wonder what would happen if someone like the Dalai Lama turned up to
a sermon and how it would differ if he turned up in plain clothes and
was just some old foreign guy sitting at the back.

Church sermons can offer alternate views of issues that face all of us,
but I do find myself ignoring and sometimes disagreeing with large parts
of them.

Church is somewhere I am expected to be. Other places are places I
choose to be. I expect that has a difference in how I approach the
situation. I am happy to listen to a group of people singing Om Jai
Jagdish Hare (Glory to the divine) but less comfortable in some (not all)
situations of people singing similar sentiments concerning Jesus. Maybe
understanding the words has an effect. Maybe because I feel there is an
expectancy to believe when I'm in the church but an acceptance that I'm
not a Hindu in the temple. How much of that is internal labels as Buddha
would have said, and how much is truly there? How much is because of the
relative positions of each religion in this country? How much because of
differences between the two messages "Only in Christ can you be saved"
versus an acceptance that there are many ways?

By looking at their work from different angles and trying to find the
common ground I can try to understand what they were getting at. It
offers interesting insights even into Christianity. These may be my
tendencies and biases clouding my interpretation but they seem useful.

Aren't you in danger of getting lost in a New Age fog? Of trying out a
hundred different religions and losing sight of the common ground (if
there is any)?

I'm probably a bit conservative at times. I rule out for me a lot of
things New Age. There's a lot of stuff there that I wouldn't practice
and a fair amount I'd question anyone I cared for practicing. So much
for respecting others' beliefs though I think the line has to be drawn
somewhere.

I have three religions I take note of and I try to understand the more
traditional versions. I tend to be a bit of a reductionist and try
to explain things in terms of the mundane. For example I can accept
prayer because of its psychological effect on the person praying, not
because I believe there is an external entity that is listening and will
act. I don't have evidence to support the existence of that external
entity. Problems seem to come when people put a lot of faith in their
prayer and the entity they pray to fails to deliver.

My opinion at the moment is that how you are in yourself far outweighs
what religion you subscribe to. Any of the main religions can be used
as a starting point or even no religion. Trying to find what it is in
religion when it works I think it does come down to things like focus
on the bigger picture and reducing selfishness, enjoying rather than
craving more, respecting others, the normal stuff. The challenge is
doing all that in balance.


My current study is the Bhagavad Gita again, and this time I feel I'm
starting to understand it.

Karen Armstrong in 'The Great Transformation' discusses this work in
some detail, and has inspired me to read it. I might try and tackle
the Upanishads first, though.

I have the Easwaren translation which seems more, almost Buddhist, in
its approach. I know the work can be interpreted in different ways by
different people. Even Easwaren acknowledges that in his introduction.
You only have to look at the different groups who claim to be following
it.

Easwaren sees it as more metaphor with Krisna representing the internal
'Self'. I'm on Chapter 2 of this pass so far, so a little way yet to go,
but no problems yet. The philosophical stuff is yet to come. The intro
was far easier to follow this time round. Easwaren is certainly happy
with his beliefs and that shows in his introduction.

# Hardcover: 256 pages
# Publisher: Shambhala Publications Inc.,U.S.; New Ed edition (Feb 2005)
# Language English
# ISBN-10: 1590301900
# ISBN-13: 978-1590301906

The older print at the local library had a nicer cover, beyond that good
book.

I think the Ramayana will be interesting. It's meant to work well as an
allegorical story and I've heard a few people referring to ideas in it
in terms of what helps them in their lives. Failing that it's meant to
be a good story in its own right. The people that told me that may be a
little biased, in the same way a Christian could say that The Bible is
a good story.

The Upanishads also sound interesting. I'll have to look again how all
the books overlap and relate. Bhagavad Gita is sometimes said to be a
Upanishad yet it is inserted into the Mahabharata. There was something I
came across somewhere that the different parts of Hinduism were more
applicable at different stages of life. Vedanta and the Upanishads
getting into deeper practices would be more applicable after your active
working life.

- Richard

--
_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ Richard Corfield <Richard.Corfield@xxxxxxxxx>
_/ _/ _/ _/
_/_/ _/ _/ Time is a one way street,
_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/_/ except in the Twilight Zone
.

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