Re: Evangelical's Role in non sinful Slavery

pg wrote:

"michaeld" <michaeld@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:460f3557$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

| I don't see that the rejection of one particular belief (like the
| existence of God) says all that much. For a start, I'm sure you've noticed
| that believers in God can often argue against various other belief systems
| convincingly - like astrology, Nostradamus, UFOlogy, assorted conspiracy
| theories and for that matter other religions. (I don't mean to
| _necessarily_ imply, btw, that all these belief systems are equally
| credible.)

Without of course applying the same rationale to their own beliefs.

Well that's kind of my point. In the same way it's quite possible for an
atheist to be able to convincingly refute[*] the existence of God, and yet
not apply the same standards of critical thinking to their own peculiar
beliefs.

[*] Again imo!

Atheists ime experience are equally sceptical of all of the above, and
considerably more besides.

Statistically speaking, you might be right; I don't have the relevant
figures.

| And I certainly know of atheists who can argue, convincingly in
| my opinion, against the existence of God and yet believe things that are
| much crazier.

Sure - but the very nature of atheism, which given the influence of
religion throughout societies both East and West, is one of a reaction
against 'accepted' doctrinal truths, I maintain that most are critical
thinkers whose scepticism does not sit well with any belief system,
least of all the 'crazy' variety. (Obviously we can always drag up the
occasional exception from somewhere...)

At least in a culture/community/family where one particular religious
belief is prevelent, what you say sounds plausible. (In one where there
are lots of unbelievers, or where there is a wide variety of faiths on
offer, probably less so.)

[me]

| I think I'm an example in that to my knowledge I've never had a single
| religious relative and, while I've never really had atheism pushed onto me
| or anything like that, not believing was certainly the default option and
| didn't require any particular courage or critical thinking.

[pg]

I would call that an exception rather than an example.

I would have thought something roughly similar would hold in any family in
which the parents were non-religious. In the UK this is hardly unusual.

(It occurs to me, btw, that I was a bit sloppy in the above quoted
paragraph, since while it is true I do not have any religious relatives, I
do have some, including one of my parents, who believe in God in some
broad philosophical sense; some of my early memories are arguing the case
of atheism against agnosticism/"philosophical theism" whenever the subject
came up. However I think my point still stands in that I didn't have any
particular religious doctrine to reject nor any organized religious
institution to get out of.)

But anyway, the
point I was responding to was one that seemed to suggest deliberate
upbringing as an atheist, rather than atheism by default.

OK.

[me]

| An interesting counterpoint to this, raised by Revd. Potts here a couple
| of months ago, is that there are some issues on which atheists and the
| more fundamentalist types of believer have much more common ground than
| with the religious moderate - the interpretation of the bible being the
| example mentioned. (I think this is right, but I don't see this as being
| such a negative indictment on atheism).

Whilst not denying that the bible may be divinely inspired? Because only
a statement of 'belief' to the contrary would be an equivalent 'radical'
interpretation of scripture, and that, in my opinion, does not sit well
with anything less that strong atheism. So a statement about common
ground on this level between atheists and fundamentalist believers would
be inappropriate.

Sorry, I'm really not sure what you're saying here.

I was referring to the fact that atheists and religious fundamentalists
both tend, on average, to take a more literal interpretation of scripture
than religious moderates.

[...] I have previously argued (evolutionary
psychology threads) that we are programmed to believe, so any departure
from this requires a specific effort of critical thinking, given the
pressures on us every day to believe in anything from god to Wheetabix
being good for you.

Yes I agree with you here. It's just that what "we are programmed to
believe" varies a lot from person to person, and if it doesn't happen to
include a belief in God then being an atheist doesn't say that much. Your
stastical conclusions might be right though, given the prevelence of
religious belief in much of the world.

Another point is that departing from the mainstream doesn't always require
critical thinking: take for example the many who reject the mainstream
opinion on relativity, evolution, etc.

Michael

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