Re: If there was a God, wouldn't it make itself known to everyone?

"Simon Robinson" <email@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:4ep6qgF1fii00U1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Phil Saunders wrote:
"Simon Robinson" <email@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
Well as far as I understood, you were describing a scenario in which
people were sent to hell for eternity, with the understanding that hell
is a place of suffering and torment. Offhand I can't think of any
reason, other than 'for its own sake', for visiting such a punishment on
someone. Can you see another reason? If so, what?

I didnt describe such a scenario. I said that there is a punishment and
that hell etc is a metaphor for that.

OK, perhaps I've got lost in the thread. I thought we were discussing
whether a good God would ever send people to hell, in the way that that's
traditionally been understood by a lot of people (ie. eternal torment) -
and you were attempting to provide one such scenario. If you don't believe
that God allows that fate to befall some people, then perhaps we don't
disagree. Though in that case I'd be curious to know what you do believe?

I believe that God will judge everyman and apply a fit and proper reward in
each case. Some will recieve an eternal future with God and some will
recieve the cosequences of their sinful/wicked actions. Eternal fire etc are
a metaphor for what happens to those who are punished by God for their
crimes. Since death and hell will be thrown in to a fire and destroyed it
canot be that either death or hell is the actual punishment if the
punishment is eternal.

Dont you think that there is any place for punishment in any case?
Oh I do think there is a place for punishment: I can think of several
reasons why punishing someone might be desirable: To prevent or deter
similar crimes in the future; to prevent there being any opportunity for
further crimes, etc. But I can't think see that those kinds of reasons
would ever be likely to require the punishment to last for *eternity*.
And I don't think that *for the sake of imposing suffering* is a good
reason for a punishment.

So you would never punish anyone unless you thought it would deter future
actions or reduce the opportunity of the offender to offend again.

That's not what I said. Those reasons were just *some* examples of reasons
for punishing people. There are other reasons, as Gareth's parallel reply
indicates. What I hope I would never do is arrange for someone to suffer
[as a supposed punishment] where a major part of my motivation runs
something like 'he's done X. I think X is bad. I want him to suffer
because he's done X'. I'm pretty sure if I ever did do something like
that, then that would be wrong and sinful on my part.

If prison deters one has to wonder why they are always over crowded.

Evidently either (i) prison is not deterring well enough, or (ii) some
people are there who shouldn't be. (I suspect (i) is more true than
(ii) )

Why would punishment of an offence need to produce a greater good?

Because you are causing suffering, which is IMO always bad. But if there
is a side-effect of causing more good (eg. to other people) than the
suffering imposed, then the net effect is good.

OK so any punishment is iyo bad? And yet you would still punish (you said
so earlier) does that make you morally good or morally bad?

IMO my motivation is the key here. It makes me morally bad if I'm
arranging the punishment because I desire to see the person suffer. It
doesn't make me morally bad if I'm arranging the punishment because I
believe that some good will come out of it (eg. someone else will be
spared being a victim of a crime, or the 'punishment' will help the
person, perhaps by facilitating his repentance)

So doing morally good things can be doing bad things?

As
long as the punishment fits the crime surely that is justice and
justice is morally good iyo surely?
What do you mean by 'fits the crime'? If by 'justice' you mean that
someone who has done something bad must be made to suffer for no other
reason than to satisfy some abstract notion of 'justice' then I'd call
that 'revenge' or 'vengeance', not 'justice', and it's IMO morally bad
not good.

I mean that the punishment is in proportion to the crime. The state
punishes people for breaking its laws but punishments are decided to
reflect the seriousness of the crime.

OK, that does strictly speaking answer my question, but it doesn't address
the real issue I was trying to get at, so let me rephrase: On what basis
do you believe that someone who has done something wrong should be made to
suffer? Imagine that I don't understand what the word 'justice' means and
tell me, without using the word 'justice' what is the reason that the
person should suffer. (Assuming that is what you believe; if it isn't then
I'm not sure what we're arguing about <g>)

Consequences/rewards. If you do x then you will y. If you do a then you will
b. Justice is ensuring that those things occur.

Justice is an "abstract notion"? And "good" and "moral" are not?

They are all abstract notions. I'm not sure what I said to imply
otherwise.

Well if you bring in "thats an abstract notion" as an argument then what can
be your reason unless it is to imply some weakness in such?

Vengeance then is bad?

Yes. You think it isn't? IMO vengeance runs directly against Jesus's
command to forgive.

Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord, I will repay. Justice.

Phil
.

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