Re: If there was a God, wouldn't it make itself known to everyone?

philip.saunders@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
Simon Robinson wrote:

I don't know whether that scenario meets the standards of what seems
good to Eric, but it doesn't meet the standards of what seems good to me
for one simple reason: Punishment for the sake of punishment (ie.
inflicting harm on a person for no other reason other than to inflict
harm on them) seems intrinsically evil to me. Can you produce a scenario
that doesn't seem evil to me, based on those standards?

Since I havent posited harm/pain being inflicted for its own sake I
cant see why I need to.

Well as far as I understood, you were describing a scenario in which people were sent to hell for eternity, with the understanding that hell is a place of suffering and torment. Offhand I can't think of any reason, other than 'for its own sake', for visiting such a punishment on someone. Can you see another reason? If so, what?

Dont you think that there is any place for punishment in any case?

Oh I do think there is a place for punishment: I can think of several reasons why punishing someone might be desirable: To prevent or deter similar crimes in the future; to prevent there being any opportunity for further crimes, etc. But I can't think see that those kinds of reasons would ever be likely to require the punishment to last for *eternity*. And I don't think that *for the sake of imposing suffering* is a good reason for a punishment.

If not one wonders what you think about our legal system. If you think
prison reforms then you are grieveously misled and the civil system
imposes fines as punishment.

No I don't particularly think prison, as it stands at the moment, has a good record on reforming people. I think prison is useful as a deterrent and to prevent at least some further opportunities to commit crimes, but I'm sure there is a lot that could be done to improve our crime/punishment system.

(Hint: You'd probably need to produce a scenario in which sending people
to hell is the *only* way to achieve some greater good that arguably
more than compensates for the eternal suffering of those people. Then
you'd need to explain why a good God might have chosen in the first
place to arrange things such that there is no alternative, kinder,
solution.)

Why would punishment of an offence need to produce a greater good?

Because you are causing suffering, which is IMO always bad. But if there is a side-effect of causing more good (eg. to other people) than the suffering imposed, then the net effect is good.

As
long as the punishment fits the crime surely that is justice and
justice is morally good iyo surely?

What do you mean by 'fits the crime'? If by 'justice' you mean that someone who has done something bad must be made to suffer for no other reason than to satisfy some abstract notion of 'justice' then I'd call that 'revenge' or 'vengeance', not 'justice', and it's IMO morally bad not good.

Simon
http://www.simonrobinson.com
.

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