Re: demons

Michael J Davis wrote:
I hope you also realise that I don't think that every human bad thought and inclination are directly prompted by spiritual agencies.

[Me]
Yeah if I've understood you correctly, you'd say that some are and some aren't?

[Michael]
Yes.

How do you tell the difference?

We have to explain who or what was this 'serpent' in the Garden of Eden. (whether real or metaphor).

For an evolutionist, the answer to that last bit is fairly obvious :-)

4. I take it that you don't believe in angels either?

I'm inclined not to but somewhat more open to the possibility. Of the two reasons for not believing in Satan/Demons, Occam's razor still applies to angels, but the nature-of-God argument doesn't.

Nah, I don't think angels need to shave! ;-) What about scripture?

LOL! And I'm not an inerrantist so I don't get your last question.

3. Jesus talks about the Kingdom of God. What's the alternative?

Staying away from the Kingdom of God. But I think the Kingdom of God is so wonderful that, eventually, everyone finds it and wants to stay there. The period before you find it (or when you have incompletely found it - I don't think it's an all-or-nothing thing) is when many people appear very successfully to create a mental hell for themselves :-)

Yes. But that's still a movement from somewhere to the Kingdom.

Well yes if you want to think of it as a physical movement I guess you can. I tend to think of it more as a state-of-mind movement.

5. You take it, as you say, that we have a spiritual side, and you seem to think that the workings of the mind are part of that. (I don't - that's perhaps the side I might call soul - or seat of the emotions, but I see the spiritual as that which exists outside the body.)
Where is the power in the dark side? How is it that we are 'tempted' to do wrong, to rebel? What is it, if not part of our spiritual make-up?

First, to clarify, I said 'the darker side of human nature' for want of any simple and more accurate term. I'm not trying to imply there's some separate part of us that is somehow evil and dark - I don't think that. For me 'dark side' is more a metaphor for the extent to which we have not yet come to know and understand God.

Ignorance rather than rebellion? Um. Sounds a bit Gnostic, I think.

I'm not very familiar with gnostic thinking. I had the impression they believed there was some secret knowledge to God that only they knew. If so then that doesn't sound like my thinking at all (which in effect says that God is so big that everyone finds him in the end). But besides, why would I care if some group of people happened to agree or disagree with me? (Unless there was some other evidence that they clearly knew what they were talking about)

And of course, I'm not saying these are not human characteristics. But my experience of praying with people, has shown me both human and spiritual powers at work. Some of those spiritual powers seem to have intelligence - and are capable of communicating in our minds, just as God can. All I'll say is that
a) you don't have to believe(!) and

Ummm, thank-you I think :-)

b) just keep an open mind.

Useful advice for everyone...

Those who are experienced in exorcism (I know several) have seen phenomena that is intelligent and inexplicable in human or scientific terms. But I don't wish to dwell on these. The less power we attribute to the enemy the better.

Interesting, since in other parts of this thread I'm being told words to the effect that you somehow help the enemy by not believing in him (which of course attributes *no* power to him at all). I don't think those can both be true.

And you'll perhaps understand that 'I've seen phenomena that I don't want to tell you about' isn't exactly the most convincing argument I've ever heard :-)

Simon
http://www.simonrobinson.com
.

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