Re: 18 year old explorers and CRB checks.

On 30 June, 07:55, "Ewan Scott" <ewansc...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
One possibly, but that isn't really the point at all.

The point is that the CRB only shows previous incidents, it is a record
not a predictor and we cannot rely on that alone.  There isn't a perfect
system of prevention although CRB and local enquiry are a very useful
tools during recruitment we still need the observation and GAGS hound
sense as well.

Paul, where have I ever said otherwise?

You haven't, but that's not what PH is getting at.


I seem to be having great difficulty in explaining why I don't use non-CRB
"cleared" people to give talk/ presentations to my Group.

No you're not.

I understand clearly what you're saying!

You're saying pervs are devious. They don't always strike at the first
opportunity. They plan. By introducing someone to your kids you say to
the kids 'we trust this person'. That person then has a foothold and
can advance his/her plan. Etc.

I'VE GOT THE MESSAGE!


The concept that a perv may be on nothing more than a recce seems beyond
comprehension. The idea that we introduce them and

....seemingly...

create a higher level of
trust seems beyond understanding.

Where I was, trust was built up over time - that's what the kids were
taught. Over time, when there's more chance of unsupervised access,
someone will be checked.

All I'm doing is making sure that the gate
is closed, rather than left open.

The gate has hinges that may stick from time to time so you should
never think that it can ever be fully closed (and even locked!)

(Why do I say that? Well the gate in this little allegory might be the
process - the CRB 'barrier' - but the hinges are people, all tohse
involved in the process. People make mistakes.

 It means that we offer the same level of
protection, no matter who is visiting.

That's fine.

My question is do you need to?

You say yes, I say you need to offer a 'safe' level but you don't need
to offer any level.


I NEVER said it was foolproof. I just said we close that gate.

But the gate...


As for the hounds, well if we rely on houndsense I'm sorry, that is no more
foolproof, indeed, experience tells me that it houndsense fails time and
time again. I KNOW that if failed in our County, I'm guessing that would be
repeated elsewhere.

Lots of systems, processes and people have failed - we're all human.
There is no guarantee.

Don't over and under-play hound 'sense'. Leaders need to pick up from
their experiences and training a 'sense' of when things might not be
right. It may just be a simple questioning sense. Why is...? What
if ...? What happens if...? Followed by a sense that action - from a
word in one's ear to let's get the police in - is needed.

A highly visible 'barrier' (of 'hounds') is a potent deterrent to a
perv.

It's not a question of being able to sniff out the perv - because
that's not often possible with devious people who disguise their
behaviour and motives very well indeed - it's more a question of
someone being in position - guard dog at the ready - to hopefully stop
the perv if they decide to act.

I recall a few years ago stepping in to cover a cub meeting at the
group I was with then (and as I had done on quite a few occasions
previously). End of meeting, 'have a good week, 'see you next week',
'don't leave the building (lobby) until your parent/guardian is here',
etc. Saw one cub walking off with a bloke I did not know - not the
father/guardian - so I stepped in. Bloke was next door neighbour and
friend. Parent had been delayed at work and had asked friend to step
in and pick up kid. But he hadn't told any leaders! Couple of phone
calls and all was clear.


So, that being the case, why rely on something that is known to be faulty,
which probably wouldn't detect the perv on a recce regardless of his SOR
status, when we can at least eliminate as best we can those who are on the
SOR by doing a CRB check, or asking to see a recent disclosure?


I don't have an issue with you checking.

All I'm saying is do a RA and if that RA comes out as saying that a
check is needed then do it, but if it doesn't....

We can never drive that RA down to 'zero' - no risk. The best we can
do is negligible risk.

All we are debating here is the level of risk.

You are assessing a certain situation as having some degree of risk
(or that there's the potenial for some degree of risk to develop in
the future). I am assessing the same situation as having negligible
risk (or something lower than yours at least!)

And who is right?

Well in your situation, you are!

Irrespective of all that, I cannot see the dire need to bring in people who
cannot be checked, who do not already have a disclosure. I ask the question,
do I need this guest speaker? Invariably no. So the whole issue becomes a
moot point.

And I might well have taken a slightly different view.

Sometimes it isn't practical to have everyone checked through CRB -
the one-off, last minute, for example. Sometimes it's not necessary -
which is where we differ - because the person can be supervised
closely.

Disclosures are not a guarantee.

Disclosures are an aid to making a recruitment decision. Try to use
disclosures with a different remit and they may not be as effective.

I am happy for you to check each and every person who comes into
contact with your kids - whatever sort of contact that may be.
However, if you don't follow guidelines on who needs to be checked and
extend this to 'checking everything near us that moves', I'm still
happy for you to use the disclosure service. Just make sure you put
the money in the box. :-)

GAGS
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Vetting and Barring Scheme
    ... the crb process in 2002. ... It cost me £12. ... The disclosure came back 26 days later. ... the adults are being asked to go through disclosure. ...
    (uk.rec.scouting)
  • Re: Child Protection: CRB, ISA, POCA, etc
    ... role because ISA wont have all the information. ... But even if the ISA could disclose everything on a CRB check, ... considering a recruitment decision. ... However, the perception of what the disclosure process can do, and the ...
    (uk.rec.scouting)
  • Re: Enhanced CRB errors....
    ... CRB check. ... Disclosure that would indicate that a refusal may possibly be forthcoming? ... While it's easy to speculate that violent offences or child ... Okay so this is possibly where the mistake has been made. ...
    (uk.rec.scouting)