Re: Seen the Survey?

On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 23:33:01 GMT, Baggy <newsgroup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

Ewan Scott wrote:
On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 18:38:44 GMT, Baggy <newsgroup@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

rr wrote:

We would inevitably end up with one database of membership at HQ, and
something completely different at Group. What happens when kids join
or leave, or both between census letters? Are they not members, or are
they members even though they are not...

What exactly is the point?
It is the devils own job to keep the membership database , dist
directory, paper appointment records and census returns for leaders
more or less the same it will be impossible for yp records and be
grossly out of date.
That is why it has to be a single source of data to avoid replication,
because that is when it gets out of sync/date. If everyone is managing
the same data you shouldn't have (as many) problems.

Sorry to be quite so blunt, but what planet are you on?

I'm looking at it in many ways from someone that knows such a database
is an eventuality as this has already been decided upon by Committee of
the Council (see notes on sticks and carrots above).

And from that point what could best be achieved for those of us who
actually run activities for young people. I understand that from what
people are saying here is they don't want the dangling carrot just the
big stick to get the data in - I suppose I see it in terms of a Utopia,
not a "anti-Utopia" or even Dystopia as some of you do.


The whole point is that the SA CANNOT use a big stick. If they do
they impose another load of paperwork on Leaders. If they do they need
to circumnavigate the DPA.

I do not have the time nor inclination to maintain our end of a
Membership Database that I perceive no real use for nor need for. If
they want to get really heavy, then they can take my warrant, my SL's
Warrant, my two ASL's warrants, my BSL's warrant, and essentially deal
with a closed Group.

The task is to work with kids and get them active, not shuffle
papers, real or virtual.

How on earth can there be a single database of membership? Gilwell
have not got a clue what is happening at HQ's around the country from
week to week. It is a fools errand to try and establish a central
database that is accurate and functional.

One thing that most people involved in IT fail to comprehend is that
most people not in IT have no will to become immersed in an IT
controlled world. For years I've been covering IT stories in business
and for years IT providers have been promising this control, that
control, this picture of customer databases, and so on and so forth,
and with one or two exceptions, most target users for the IT simply do
not have the will, or the wherewithal to utilise the information they
receive.

Scouting is a movement, it is a movement that operates at local levels
and some bright spark has this idea that it can be managed at a
national level. This national database cannot work, it will not work.
It is diverting resources, and in its attempt to work can only
increase "paperwork" at the sharp end. Does it benefit our Scouts?
Does it help them access activities? I doubt it.

See below...

This last week I've been at an AGM, I've run Explorers, I've run
Scouts, I've been kayaking Saturday and Sunday, I've facilitated an
Archery Course. Would any of that have been assisted by a central
database of inaccurate information? No.

An inaccurate one almost certainly not - but for my purposes an accurate
database (as I would ensure it was - as I already do in a number of
different files electronically (spreadsheets/text files) etc) the
answer from our Groups perspective is "Yes!" with a captial Y and at
least one exclamation mark! Communication works and I can see a central
database facilitating that:

* Sending our reminders about the football competition this morning,
letting people know who's names were down and who had forgotten -
which meant we ended up with 2 not 1 team;
* Sorting out transport re-arrangements last weekend when one of our
drivers dropped out the day before we were aiming to go to Gilwell
due to illness in the family;
* Contacting those that weren't at the Pack Meeting the week before
reminding them we were not at the Scout Hut last week;
* For the kayaking sessions a fortnight ago making sure that as many
Cubs as possible wanted to go went - meaning we had twice as many as
any other Pack in the District.

All these things happen as I can quickly and easily chase people, remind
people as things are stored electronically. I can go on if you want.!

You can go on all you like that is a local database, and I can assure
you that my lot would not pay the slightest bit of attention to
e-mails, or notices on the web site. So it would be, from our point
of view a waste of time - we have tried it and it has failed. Maybe it
failed because I could not commit the time - I'd rather be kayaking,
or shooting, or camping, or whatever with the kids than working with
databases.

If the SA want to help us they need to get real. They need to help us
get kids active by lobbying against restrictive practices, by lobbying
against spurious litigation, by helping us get kids out and active.

And interestingly most of this lobbying needs statistical information to
support it - a good example from Census is the ethnic breakdown of YP,
or information about those with "disabilities" which affect their day to
day Scouting - for which some people either deliberatly put in bogus
data - or miss people out.

That data is available as a snapshot from the existing census. A
membership database would need updating every time someone joined or
left.

I suspect that the annual census figures are accurate enough for this
purpose.


I'd much rather that the funding going into things like on-line
virtual Scouting and central databases were put into outreach projects

At no point have I supported "on-line virtual Scouting" as something
which is a good thing - I'm not convinced about the "forums, chat rooms,
MySpace" ideas as put forward by the questionnaire, I see it more as an
excellent source of support material.

A few weeks ago through work I was fortunate enough to have a meeting
with two of the senior management team behind News International's web
presence - they were investigating the infra-structure needs of running
their web presence (At work I manage a large biological data resource)
and how they were moving more into web-technologies - for the
Times/Sunday Times at the moment at least most of their content of the
Paper is online - they actually produce more content for the
web-environment than they do for the paper.

And I've been in publishing for some 20 plus years and I have seen
changes. I've seen publishers eschew the Internet, I've seen them
embrace it, but to date it has largely been in support of hard copy.

Two publishers that I have worked for have run Internet sites for
years. One just keeps building and developing it, but it is a constant
drain on resources and is held up by hard copy magazines.

The other one has virtually abandoned the web site.

There is a vast amount produced for web content, but it is accessed
and used in a very different way. Revenue streams are very different
online and are still being developed. Publishers need a massive
readership of their newspapers to promote their online presence.

That is very different from Scouting where most kids do their two
hours per week. I still don't see how we get a real benefit from the
membership database, when the kids get given forms for activities they
are excited about and want to do but forget to take out of their
pocket and hand to mum and dad.

I tried direct mailing our parents about a camp, less than half the
kids brought forms back. I started asking parents why they didn't want
their son to come to camp. It turned out that when they opened the
envelope and saw the Scout logo they thought it was a circular and
they binned it without reading it. This happened twice.

Now, if I can write a press release about a hearse that gets picked up
by the national press (even the international press) I think I can
write a notice that gets attention. So , there is a big flaw in any
concept that thinks a central database will help get news through to
parents if the parents aren't that interested. I'm just not convinced
that kids are that interested in IT. It is a tool that they use at
school, and most use it poorly.

Ewan Scott
.