Re: No limits for older Leaders; Camp Permits.



Dave wrote:


"Phil Bradshaw" <philbradshaw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:g6SdnUb5SrnSYR_ZRVnyuQ@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Neil Williams wrote:

Phil Bradshaw wrote:

Sub-plot is Camp Permits for older Leaders, in short what conditions
need
to apply when older Leaders, however willing, are not able to run
Nights Away _ON THEIR OWN_, but this raises wider issues that likely
will be of increasing concern as present generation of Leaders steams
past previous 65 age limit.

Nobody is permitted to run nights away events on their own, except for
ES, so that's not overly difficult. I think it'd be the responsibility
of the Permit holder to decide who they thought they needed over and
above the minimums, whatever the age of said Permit holder.

Indeed, but the reason I put _ON THEIR OWN_ is because I've been asked to
consider that aspect as assessor, I assume for when something goes awry
and
they could end up truly on their own with YP (e.g., other Leader/s
off-site
for some very good reason).


Based on the info you have provided - my particular view is that you need
to forget the age thing.

You as an assessor and the DC as the person who has appointed you need to
be happy that the person no matter what their age or disabillity they are
able to run the event.

If you feel they can then fine - if they cannot then they don't get or
have removed their permit; not on age grounds but capabillity grounds.

If only; until asked to consider specific circumstances (_ON THEIR OWN_) I
didn't think it was my remit to go beyond capabilities, excellent in my
view albeit requiring aids and awareness of others of needs related to
physical infirmity that age has a bearing on. I do not have sufficient
expertise to make that judgement however, or any idea how capabilities may
change over time particularly in the foreseeable future.

If it was me on the slab then I would scream blue murder if my Permit was
revoked or made conditional because of my disability, aided and also
requiring awareness of others of my needs. The latter isn't always
forthcoming...


We have a "leader" who has a permit for campsite (he wanted greenfield),
and in reality has not camped for over 20 years - he has slept in huts and
caravans etc whist some Scouts have camped.

He wants a permit because he thinks that it allows him to "supervise" a
camp from 300 miles away - not Scouts on a passport but other adults who
do not have permits running the camp.

He is 67 or 68 and in my opinion does not understand the scheme but
sucessive DCs have allowed him and now the assessor is having major
problems.

The same person attended a WGL course last year and showed the county
assessor a list of walks they had done over the years (none recently) and
managed to convince them to give him a permit for Terrain 1 with no new
assessment and to top it all Terrain 2 limited!!!

IME not everyone can be relied on to acknowledge limitations to their
capabilities though (or even be aware of full extent, myself included,
until dropped in at the deep end for whatever reason) so I can understand
that a line must be drawn somewhere.

However, and however well-intended (i.e. not losing sight of YP first),
taking away responsibility of Permit applicants/holders to assess their own
capabilities (and make suitable and sufficient risk assessments
accordingly) by dictating conditions above and beyond Permit levels written
into POR does not sit well with the Disability Discrimination Act
especially if conditions can be construed as short of making 'reasonable
adjustments'.

Here be dragons I fear; much relies on my assessment and however
carefully I consider what I put on the form (and consider my role as
defined - FS 120433 refers) I could be horribly wrong in absence of coherent
and reliable support (curate's egg...) for older Leaders.
.



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