Re: sparking/electrical problem with Peco points

Greg,

This is a problem I just don't have because I don't rely on switch
blades as the switching mechanism for exactly the sparking reason.
No, I am always aware of it as an issue.
And yet you offered advice towards a fix that have no positive effect on
that situation.

What is that supposed to mean ? Are you telling me I don't know what I
am talking about ?
Believe it or not, some people choose to observe and learn from the
mistakes of others and implement a solution that resolves all of those
issues. Yes, I made those mistakes in my early days. I don't have them
on my layout now because I wire things up properly. Just because I
don't have them on my layout doesn't mean I don't know what I am
talking about or have never seen the problems being discussed!

It's not a problem to me as my turnouts are switched from end-point to
mainline in sequence.

And so are mine, but don't forget, other people don't necessary have
this kind of setup.
And also don't forget that it is possible to get intermittent shorts
while all those turnouts
are changing in one go if they are not wired correctly. While a DC
controller may tollerate it,
the proper protection a DCC unit affords wouldn't tollerate it. That is
another subject
which I don't propose to go into here, but you are probably not aware
of it if it does exist and I am not proposing that we investigate the
possibility either.

you drive an individual loco, that loco and no other loco, irrespective
of what else is on the track. This in itself is a huge benefit.
It's also slotcar toy like.

No! If you put multiple slot cars on the track, they all go together
because the track is being driven, not the individual cars.

time you are relying on turnouts to isolate locos, you have to
compromise your operation in order to keep locos away from each other.
Podssibly, but it's not a huge compromise and certainly not as great as
some of the DCC compromises.
(in specific circumstances)

Some of us happen to believe that the above is a huge compromise which
we are not prepared to accept.
Some of us also believe that the 'bowl of pasta' wiring under a DC
layout is also a compromise we are not prepared to accept.
I am not aware of DCC 'compromises'. What are they ?

Personally, I prefer a much more reallistic operation where the control
system does not impose such limitations and that is one of the many
reasons I use DCC.
It's the reason I don't use DCC.

So you don't want a more realistic level of operation ? How odd!

Isolation of sidings in DCC is really not recommended because
loco/train lights go off as does sound (accptable in a fiddle yard, but
not on the scenic section of a layout) - DCC has a constant track
voltage present.
Yes, I know that - so does PWM DC.

No! PWM DC (AFAIK) is only present on the track when the throttle is
powering a loco. When the loco is stationary, there is no power on the
track.
In DCC the power is on the track at all times at full voltage,
regardless of whether any locos are running.
It's not the same thing.

Yes, you do want the siding to liven up, but what about the loco
sitting at the far end of the siding - a very common operating practice

That's one of my DC system limitations - if I want to park a loco I need
to be able to isolate it in a loco sized (switchable) block.

Ah! Now were are getting somewhere! Yes, your DC system has a
limitation and that is compromising the way you operate the layout.
Point proven!

Block switches are cheaper than decoders and have a longer lifespan.

Anti-DCC scaremongering nonsense!


? Using your approach that loco will always spring to life...
Only if I'm stupid enough to link an in use controller that specific
track block.

Point proven again! Your operating method is compromised by the
traction control system.

Huhh??? Of course I place locos on the track - it's specially designed
to be electrified on a system compatible with my locos!

I think you have misunderstood. The example I provided was that you
have a siding into which you are driving a train. I stated that you
would have a problem if there was already a loco sitting at the end of
that siding - that it would spring to life once the turnout was
changed. What I then said was that without an isolating section, this
is an activity you wouldn't do because it doesn't work - your operation
is compromised by the control system.

Sure, and on a short siding the electrical switching is done through the
facility inherent in the Peco turnouts, the facility you claim must be
eliminated!

I think we have a misunderstanding here.
Yes, Peco turnouts can isolate sidings but that is not what an
isolating section is.
An isolating section is a separate length of track which is switched
on/off using a switch (or relay) on a control panel. It is independent
of the switching of a turnout. If a turnout livens up a siding, it does
not (normally) affect the isolating section.
From what you are saying, I get the impression that your layout relies
entirely on sidings being switched by turnouts and has no isolating
sections. I cannot understand how any DC layout can provide any level
of reallistic or practical operation without isolating sections.
The facility you understand as me claiming to eliminate is that I
believe that sidings should have isolating sections in them. This means
that the switching of the turnout has no effect on the siding itself
which is under the control of the isolating switch. It is really
difficult to operate a layout at an exhibition without this
functionality!
Where I say it can all be eliminated is under DCC control because in
that system, all running lines are live at all times and are not
switched by turnouts, well they can be, but they don't need to be.

Do you always leave your controllers set at full speed when you're not
using them???

No, of course not, but consider shunting in sidings. A loco is on the
move and you change turnouts. There is a risk that any loco already in
one of the sidings can spring to life if those sidings do not have
isolating sections. This means that the operation is being compromised
by the control system.

My circuitry is arranged so that only the route required is connected to
whichever controller is linked to it.

This is what my computer control did in my DC days but I still had
numerous isolating sections to enable some for of reallistic operation.
Have a look at http://mrol.gppsoftware.com for pictures of my layout.
So if you don't break switch rails on live frogs, how do you prevent
unexpected feeds leaking around the layout ?

There is the point of the Peco turnout switching system, only the route
selected is electrified.

Yes, but as I keep saying, is does not resolve the issues of locos
already sitting at the end of a siding - which you conceded above is a
limitation of your system.
It's not a limitation that I am personally prepared to accept.

As do I - with the exception of "IECC" which is an unknown abreviation
to me.

IECC is 'Integrated Electronic Control Centre'. The software I use
replicates the British prototype RailTrack IECC standards for computer
control panels.

The image of chimpanzees banging at typewriters to imitate Shakespeare
spring to mind!

I have certainly seen it happen on other people's layouts!

Why would I have out of gauge wheelsets???
My wheels have coned treads - I remember puzzling over a Kleinbahn brand
shunter that did activate parked locos as it crossed live frogs - my
standards aren't high, but they are standards! ;-)

That really depends on what standards you are using and how strongly
you implement them.
Many Hornby locos for example, of their older products, have very wide
wheel treads which can cause shorts between switch blades and stock
rails. Not only that, they are out-of-gauge as well, compounding the
problem. The only way to really resolve this issue is to replace the
wheels, whch for a lot of people, is no mean task. Usually what happens
is that they attach plastic shims to the turnouts to stop the sparking,
but it is really a band-aid solution.
In fact your statement of a loco activiating parked locos as it crossed
live frogs is a classic clue. This is one of the many problems which
can occur if switch rails are not electrically broken. The link I
provided solves that problem.

My aim was to eliminate ALL block switches and controller selection
switches from my control panel - I can't quite get there but I'm close.

No, each controller is linked only to it's required route.

This sounds a little bit like how my original DC setup was wired. The
computer controlled relays to connect controllers to blocks where locos
were running - cab control.
This is OK on a running line, but it is inadequate in sidings where
isolating sections are required. I really cannot see how a DC layout
can get away with no isolating sections at all. The operation must be
seriously compromised in some way.

Personally, I prefer the simplicity of wiring and far more reallistic
operation afforded by DCC.
Sure, but realisim in operation was why I reverted to DC block control.

But if you use DCC you can still operate a block controlled system and
your wiring is very much simpler in the process.
Don't get caught up in the urban myth that block control requires DC
wiring!

Certainly but instead you spend vastly more on DCC componentry

No, only in decoders for locos. I don't power turnouts via the DCC.

The maths didn't work for me - layout wise, and the DCC loco control
didn't work for me in regard to signalling and staging yard wise.

I understand the maths but I don't understand why signalling would be a
problem under DCC - it certainly isn't for me.

Regards

Graham Plowman

.

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