Re: HHO kits
- From: "Duncan Wood" <nntptmp@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 16:31:58 -0000
On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 16:09:50 -0000, Paul <Paul1231392@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Gareth Magennis wrote:"Duncan Wood" <nntptmp@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:op.u3x9bwhbrpivgb@xxxxxxxxxComplete waste of your time! :On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 08:47:47 -0000, Gareth Magennis <sound.service@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:There's no way I'm going to be buying one of these kits, I'm just trying to get some proper data on whether they actually achieve very much. Beyond relieving you of your cash, of course.
"Duncan Wood" <nntptmp@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:op.u3xeczdlrpivgb@xxxxxxxxxThe only thing it'll damage is your wallet, there's so little of it it's not going to be an issue.On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:42:28 -0000, Mrcheerful <nbkm57@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Gareth Magennis wrote:It shouldn't affect the lambda, the 2 h2 + 1o2 cancel out conveniently.Hi,why not build one and let us know how you get on. At its simplest it is a
I know this is rather controversial, but I just can't seem to find any
reliable info on these kits. I think I might get more sense here.
A quick resume as to what I think I know:
These kits are fitted to existing engines and electolyse water using
the battery, to produce a Hydrogen/Oxygen mixture which is fed into
the engine, along with the normal petrol/diesel. It is claimed to
increase mpg, produce lower emissions, and higher torque.
It is claimed that is does so not just because you are burning the
Hydrogen mixture (it takes more energy to electrolyse water than can
be gained back by simply burning the products) but, I believe, by the
fact that Hydrogen burns much faster and hotter than petrol or
diesel. This affects the whole combustion process in a way that
makes the engine more efficient. Kind of a catalyst effect.
Now there are some very extravagent gain claims out there, mostly by
people selling the kits (surprise surprise), or those trying to
justify spending the money on them, or others with vested interests
in unverifiable claims.
What is the real world, sensible analysis of these systems?
(I'm quite interested to know what the ECU would think is going on)
jar with salt water in and a couple of electrodes plus a tube to get the gas
into the engine. There are plenty of home how to sites with the details,
very little expense for a simple system. The ecu should be happy enough it
will just turn down the fuel to keep the lambda correct.
-- Duncan Wood
Thanks for that.
If the combustion is quicker, (perhaps thats why an increase in torque is claimed?) how might the timing be affected? The ECU wouldn't retard it I guess, just wondering if it might be an issue, or indeed damaging to the engine.
-- Duncan Wood
There is serious research going on with this technology, with a view to developing new designs of engines that can fully exploit it, which would seem to me to be a much better idea than trying to retrofit stuff to existing engines not designed for it. If existing engines can be safely and cheaply modified and gain something, then all well and good. If its all just a scam, I'd like to see some proper proof.
This does seem quite a touchy subject with both the Pros and the Antis, and there just doesn't seem to be reliable data out there to verify things one way or the other, which I find kind of odd.
Many alleged water-fuelled cars obtain hydrogen or a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen (sometimes called "oxyhydrogen", "HHO", or "Brown's Gas") by the electrolysis of water, a process that must be powered electrically.. The hydrogen or oxyhydrogen is then burned, supposedly powering the car and also providing the energy to electrolyse more water. The overall process can be represented by the following chemical equations:
2H2O ? 2H2 + O2 [Electrolysis step]
2H2 + O2 ? 2H2O [Combustion step]
Since the combustion step is the exact reverse of the electrolysis step, the energy released in combustion exactly equals the energy consumed in the electrolysis step, and—even assuming 100% efficiency—there would be no energy left over to power the car. In other words, such systems start and end in the same thermodynamic state, and are therefore perpetual motion machines, violating the first law of thermodynamics. And under actual conditions in which hydrogen is burned, efficiency is limited by the second law of thermodynamics and is likely to be around 20%. More energy is therefore required to drive the electrolysis cell than can be extracted from burning the resulting hydrogen-oxygen mixture.
But you're using conventional science & not allowing for the Orgone Energy. Or the catalytic effect of hydrogen. IIRC popular mechanics got so bored of the stories that they actually built & fitted one.
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