Re: VIC, repair on not?

On 24 Oct 2008 00:04:26 GMT, Adrian <toomany2cvs@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Ok, one last time ..

Ok, for the hard of understanding ... someone borrows your wheelbarrow
and brings it back broken. You lent it to them on the understanding they
will 'do the right thing' if it get's lost, stolen or broken. They hand
you a fiver and say "sorry about breaking your wheelbarrow but it was
old and worn so here's a fiver, that should cover it". I would guess
(although from your answers so far I'm not putting any money on it) you
might say "erm, that was a perfectly functional wheelbarrow so I'd like
you to replace it with something similar please". If that means buying a
second hand one for a tenner (rather than a new one for 15) then so be
it, but a fiver is no use to you when any second hand one is £10 to buy
or cost to get yours repaired.

If a similar replacement will cost you a tenner, then the market value is
a tenner. And a tenner is what your mate should pay you. Congratulations.
I knew you'd get there in the end...

But your mate is only offering you a fiver and you can't get an
equivalent replacement for a fiver. I was never sure you will *ever*
get there though. ;-)

Your Belmont is worth £250. A similar condition-and-quality replacement -
ignoring the sentimental value - would cost you about £250.

No sentiment involved. Direct replacement in as good a general
condition.

I'm not sure where you got that idea from but it wasn't me. I mentioned
knowing it's full history because that has a value (or people wouldn't
be interested in something having a FSH).

On a 15yo car? It wouldn't make a jot of difference. Current condition is
all.

Oh dear ... well is wasn't 15 years old when we bought it but again
that's irrelevant. If I was spending 'good money' on a car, no matter
how old, I'd be interested to see it had been regularly looked after,
*especially* if it was something I was hoping to keep for a while.

So tell me, Tim, how DO you get a new car for free?

Erm, I don't know but if you find out ... (looks at watch, hmm, he did
say he'd been drinking ..)

People have always gone out
to look for them and handed over money for them.

Shame, ours have all been known pre purchase and delivered. ;-)

Blimey, you knew the blokes in the factory?

Erm, for that I guess they would have had to be new and none of them
were?

Sierra, Ex Co car bought off them at 10 years old for 25 quid and run
for next to nowt for another 13.

Astra bought off Niece 5 years ago for £350 and still running fine with
little attention.

Rover bought off mate 5 years ago for £100 and still running fine with
little attention.

Ah, we're back to old bangers, not new cars... You move those goalposts
almost as quickly as Duhg.

Erm, no wonder you are confused ... when did anyone mention new cars?

But d'you see my point? For a ton, you can get a 15yo shed that'll do you
fine for five years with little attention.

Ok ..

So why moan when you get given
£250 for the one that's just been stuffed? That's what it's WORTH. Market
value.

Because this one wasn't a shed. It may be what they think it's worth
but I don't think you would get the same for that money (and the whole
point of this).

But you don't pay for their sentimental value - only their market value
- and that's what their premiums are set by, the value of the vehicle
and driver risk...

I know. But you were asking why I should expect others to carry the
cheap repair of some good functional transport. I'm not, I have paid out
far more in premiums over the 35 years I've been driving than the claim
cost of all our vehicles, ever. So because I have never written off
anything 'valuable' I haven't cost the system anything.

I'm sure the shareholders of your insurers will be very happy to know
that they have zero administrative costs, and they'll be pleased to know
their staff are all volunteers.

Eh? <it must be Special Brew he's on now> ;-)

And what about the other 9 years (that they count) I haven't claimed
or the several years before that?

<shrug> What about 'em?

See above.

Quite.

As an experiment I phoned the InsCo and told them what happened. They
gave me a new laptop, probably worth 'on the market' 5 x the old one.
No questions, no hassles, because that's what my policy said they
would do

And you were paying for that "new for old" cover in the premium. It's
the basis on which the premium had been set.

Yes, and a premium many hundred times LESS than the value of stuff
covered, not equal or several times more than?

The concept of "risk" a novelty, is it? I don't need to ask whether you
work in insurance - it's quite obvious you probably can't even spell
"actuarial".

So you think the stigma that often surrounds 'Insurance' is
unjustified then?

I'll bet you'd moan like buggery at the level a car insurance premium
would have to be to include that.

No, I would like to see a system that is real world, like I think you
will find exists in many other countries where they don't automatically
use new parts to repair an old car?

You'd rather be paying £50/hr labour for somebody to trawl eBay and
scrappies for a used wing?

No, they'd get a 20 quid wing delivered on the next van (where have
you been ffs)?

You'd be happy if the car came back from the
bodyshop with an inch of pudding in it, rattlecanned over?

Erm?

No, you
wouldn't.

Don't give up your day job (if you were thinking of going into mind
reading I mean).

You'd have a paddy at 'em.

No, if it looked 'tidy' I would care less, just in the same way we are
considering just leaving the damage how it is ...

"I could do better" - yes, you
probably could. By spending several hours filling-sanding-filling-sanding-
filling-sanding. At £50/hr? Don't think so.

Nor do I. New wing £20, paint a tenner (water based). A bit of
lacquer, and a few nuts and bolts. I've done it before and it took
little time, and I'm not doing it all the time for a living.

And if you don't think a workshop costs £50/hr to run, you ought to try
talking to somebody who runs one...

Fine (ok, and I'll try to help you again here). Say the parts come to
75 quid. That's (at your rates) 6 hours they have to paint a fit a
wing before they hit the £375 they think the car is worth. If you
can't do that job in that time you deserve to go bust (remember, it
doesn't have to be 'concourse', it just want's to look 'tidy', like it
was pre accident).

The cost of the repair of our car had no bearing on the fact it was
repaired or not. It was the fact that it was old and 'worthless' (in
their opinion). Why did they have to write it off? Why did THEY
determine the cost of the repair would exceed X value when I could have
/ can / will repair it for a fraction of that?

Because the cost of a professional, quality repair IS massively in excess
of the value of the car.

BS

If you want to DIY it, fine.

I don't *want* to but I'm going to have to because they didn't do it.

Take the insurance money, less a small percentage to retain the car,

(it was nothing extra actually)

and
DIY it. You might even make a couple of quid to be worth your time and
effort.

I don't really have the time to do it (as in actually 'spare') but
will have to find the time ... or, I'll see what a local garage where
they are all currently sitting about drinking tea might charge to do
the job for me.

Oh, wait, that's _exactly_ what you're doing...

Opps, maybe it's not! ;-)

All I was hoping for was a fair solution to our situation.

Fairer than the solution you just suggested?

Yes, in that there is no reason why the job couldn't be do
*realistically*. But you seem to be locked in their mindset where:

1) The market value of our car is relevant (to me).

2) Where the work has to be done in their 'approved' garage (loads of
opportunities for sweetners there dontcha think?).

3) Where they will use (or charge for) new parts at retail price.

4) They will fit more parts than the job warrants.

5) They will make it CatC costing me more time, money and trouble for
no real reason (it may be 'the rules' but they could have made it a D
or just fixed it).

6) They could have carried on insuring me ... "we don't insure write
off's" (others will and do so cheaper we have found out).


Ok, what they actually paid us out will more than cover the actual cost
of the repair, the VIC test and probably the increase in premium (the 9
years NCB was protected). I just wish they had sorted out the repair
themselves.

D'you not see the inherent contradiction in that? You want the cost of
the repair to be calculated based on you DIYing it, yet you want somebody
else to do it for you.

See above.

Don't work like that.

Duh, I know. But IMHO could and should work better than it seems to on
some occasions.

I know many instances where people have been 'paid out' equal and even
more than what they paid for the car, bike and even the *real* market
value, but I don't see why some have to pay the price for such events,
especially when in the real world it's such a trivial amount?

Many InsCo's have a lower limit where they don't even check the
validity of the claim. Twice we have had roof damage in strong winds
and had the 'ok' over the phone to go ahead and fix from one (
straight / honest) quote. They even sent the cheque and didn't want to
see the invoice. Same with the laptop, gave me £500 worth of
replacement without even the hint of wanting to see a purchase receipt
or device itself? Now before you go on about new_for_old again, I was
more than happy to be given *any* equal spec laptop or have the roof
repaired with second hand slates (in fact on the latter job it was the
preferred option).

If only the difference in TPF&T and Comp was greater (for us) and you
got windscreen / malicious cover with the former ...

Anyroadup. It's obvious you are getting the current status quo
confused with what someone might think was fair treatment so it's the
last I'll say on the matter.

Good fun though .. ;-)

T i m





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