Re: Dirty Digital [sic.]

In article <xrT9k.29941$AH5.21350@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Rob
<patchoulian@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Don Pearce wrote:



No. Dither is an integral part of the process - always has been and
always will be. It isn't shaping anything.

Yes, OK, I did say I was coming from a position of ignorance. I thought
dither does shape sound.

No. It allows the 'sound' to be recorded correctly.

Is dither a necessary

It (or an equivalent) is required if you want to avoid needlessly spoiling
the recording.

Just like with LP you have to get various things correct when cutting the
LP. e.g. use the right shape of cutter, heat the cutter, apply the correct
pre-emphasis, etc, etc.

So you can make a CD with no dither (or equivalent). You can also make an
LP without doing what is required for good results. In each case the
failure to do the process correctly may have an adverse impact on the
results.

From information theory, dither (or an equivalent) is *required* if you
wish the result of an analogue source being recorded to reproduce in a way
that is formally indistinguishiable from being analog. i.e The result is
then such that it shows no signs of ever having been in digital/sampled
form.

However: In every case - CD, LP, cassette tape, etc - what you get will
depend on how well each stage of the process was carried out. But 'digital'
is no different to any other format in this respect.

, objective and ubiquitous component of digital
recording then?

You would have to ask the people who create each CD (or LP) that. I have a
number of lousy or faulty CDs. However, by comparison, a far higher number
of the LPs I've had showed problems of various kinds.

And you don't have to reduce
bit depth (not rate) to 16 - you can record that way in the first
place. It offers far more signal to noise ratio than any available
analogue format. 24 bits is available because it is possible, and it
does offer a S/N advantage over 16 bits - not for an audio recording,
of course,

Main advantage in audio is that it gives you headroom so you can make
recordings without having to fret so much about clipping. Rather ironic
given how willing those who then make pop/rock CDs then are to
systematically trash the results. Alas, the problem here is with the people
making the decisions, not with the systems they control.



Yes, I'd picked up that recording is sometimes done in higher than 16
bits. There must be an algorithm I'd have thought. What you say
contradicts aspects of the Wikipedia entires. Have you never felt
inclined to put these right? It only takes a couple of seconds. Look up
'dither' and 'quantization' and see what you think. If you'd prefer I'll
pick out a few examples.

Afraid I have always felt that trying to 'correct wikipedia' is about as
sensible as herding cats. Life is too short. :-)


OK, you hate the sound from records, and that's really an end to it. I
get a lot of enjoyment from records - sound and artefact.

I just bought a 4 CD Stiff back catalogue collection. Compressed and
sort of 'dolbyised', with dull treble. I played the vinyl version of one
of the tracks I have. I honestly fail to believe the vinyl sounds worse.

Blame the people who made the CDs. Not the CD Audio format.

if you look in this month's HFN you'll see some more work on compression
and clipping on CDs. Some examples have effective dynamic ranges <sic> of
about 1dB due to level compression.


Listening to Amy Winehouse (more her band actually) on the Glastonbury
thing shows what can be done under very difficult conditions - I thought
the sound was superb.

For classical music, a good bet - as ever - is to listen to R3. Also to buy
BBC Music Magazine. Their cover CDs are often really excellent, both as
recordings and as performances. But I don't know of anything similar for
other types of music, alas.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Change 'noise' to 'jcgl' if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

.

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