Re: Remastering

In article <C4V%i.254194$%F1.22006@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Iain
Churches <IainNG@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" <jcgl@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:4f433f26c1jcgl@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


Indeed, and elsewhere. Shame that people in the business of producing
CDs seem not to care at all. And in this case I do use the word
"shame" quite deliberately, as in 'shameful', etc.

Oh I think they do care, Jim. But they try to give the majority what
they (the majority) think they want.

Not quite the correct wording, I'm afraid. Confusion of "they"s and of
object with subject.

More accurately, "they" <the producers> give "the majority" <all of us who
buy the result> what the *producers* think "they" <the majority> want. As
you write elsewhere, it is the producers who make this decision on the
basis of what the *producers* "think". Although TBH I have doubts about
using the term "think" for this. "Believe" might be more accurate as it
seems to be a faith which the 'evidence' you cite them as believing in
simply isn't a basis for their idea.


Jim, who at first seemed to doubt my word when I told him about it,

That is not my recollection. You seem to be muddling different points
in the above assertion. :-) Please see below...

Firstly, there is a clear distinction between applying things like
'smiley eq' and 'level compression on the one hand, and 'flat top
clipping' on the other.

These are three links in the same chain, of progressive processing.

You mean they are all applied. But that does not make them the same thing.


In principle, if we know enough about the eq and level compression,
then the alterations could be undone. But this is totally impossible
if a signal pattern is clipped. The shape/info during the clipped
period has been removed from the data.

Yes indeed. It is interesting that so few people even seem to notice it.

Not when they have no comparison. This presumably mostly done to
studio/electronic recordings of created works which no-one could have sat
down and listened to as an acoustic original in a hall like the RFH or RAH.
Nor, indeed, to a CD made *without* the clipping, but otherwise identical.



The key problem is that people are not given a choice between two
versions of the same performance recording on CD, one clipped and the
other not. And they are not then told, "Here are two versions, one
clipped, the other not, but otherwise identical. Please choose which
one you prefer."

I think we have got to the situation in which we now find ourself, step
by step. The majority of people do not listen to pop CDs on a
high-fidelity audio system, but in their cars, or on mobile players. So
the product is tailored to suit the requirements of the majority. It is
unfortunate for us that neither you or I fall into that category.

Actually, in general it is fortunate that we don't. Instead we tend to
listen to other forms of music which have not normally been bastardised in
this way.

If that process were routine, then the results might be evidence for
(1) *if* people either showed they didn't care which version, or
tended to choose the clipped version.

If there had been complaints/ returns in any number, then a step
backward to less compressed/EQ/clipped material would probably have been
taken.

Problem as explained elsewhere. People are denied a comparison, and offered
the content they would like on a 'take it or leave it' basis. Also the
front presented is that all copies will sound the same, implying there is
no 'fault' and it would be a waste of time to return and ask for a
replacement copy *of the artist and performance you want*.

Alternatively, it may be that you thought I "doubt your word" because
it struck me as indistinguishable from incompetence for someone to
routinely do (1) on the basis of a belief as worthless as (2).

It certainly has nothing to do with incompetence, believe me.

I'm afraid this isn't a matter I can take on the basis of "belief" as the
evidence points to it being incompetence. I have to judge by the evidence.

The same CD mastering suites that turn out dreadfull pop masters also
make impeccable jazz and classical masters. But the demands of the
client are different.

That simply shifts the identity of the incompetence from one chair to
another, I'm afraid. I can appreciate that a professional will do what they
are required - even if they hold their nose - although I might have
expected more from a genuine professional who cared about their work. I
would also expect *not* to see them quoted as saying some of the things in
the Times report which seem rather unimpressive to me.


I pointed out to him on many occasions that therecord companies were
simply giving the public what they (think they) want. Judging by the
very low numbers of returned pop CD's, this seems to be the case.

Note the key phrase "they think". i.e. this is a belief on their part
which, from what you have said, is without reliable foundations as
they seem to misunderstand what would constitute evidence.

Yes, one has to use the words "they think" because no-one can know for
certain. But the fact that technical returns are so low, would tend to
indicate that the assumption is correct.

I am afraid that last phrase simply isn't correct. For reasons I have
repeatedly explained. I am a little surprised you have not taken this
point.


So I am afraid that if what you say is reliable as a report - and I
see no reason to doubt you - then, yes, words like "shameful" and
"incompetence" do seem appropriate to me for the specific points I
describe above. I am sorry if that upsets anyone, but I am afraid we
have to judge by the results if they are not prepared to come forwards
and present any other evidence or reasons.

But your opinion, like mine, is just that, a single opinion.

No doubt of that. :-)


There are probably millions out there who are happy with what they are
being sold. We cannot know because they do not express an opinion either
way.

Nor can we know how many are *not* "happy". Nor indeed, can we reliably
untangle just what a sweeping term like "happy" would mean in this context
for so many individual experiences. However, judging from some of the
reactions to the Times report, I don't seem to be the only person who
objects to the way CDs are being treated.

But I agree that once the relevant bods in the biz have made their mind up,
it is easy for them to dismiss anyone who dislikes what they are doing.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html
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