Re: One for the bottleheads

In article <1138821763.905132.316940@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
Andy
Evans <performanceandmedia@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Thus you get statements made 'in isolation' like Andy's ones about the
distortion performance of a gain device >>

I'm still waiting for a reply on this subject. It may be easier to evade
it. The point I'm making is nothing superficial like 'valves are better
than ss' - far from it. Contemporary valve users use quantities of solid
state componants, and like others I have no equipment I've built that
doesn't use ss devices. I'm making a specific point that many - and I do
mean many - users of contemporary valve equipment make, and that is that
they prefer valves as a gain device. Many prefer to design for such gain
devices without global feedback, many others prefer to use feedback.
Many - and again I do mean many - listeners find that amplifiers using
valves as gain devices are audibly CLOSER to the real thing, in other
words closer in the broadest sense meaning LESS distorted. Is all this
clear?

Yes, it is quite clear that you are expressing the opinions you state
above. What is not clear is if it has any basis in reality. The problems
with you opinion have been repeatedly explained, but I will summarise them
again as you seem to have missed the point.

1) When people do tests which rely *only* on the sounds produced, and the
amp (which may be valve or ss) have low distortion, similar frequency
reponses, etc, then the tests show no signs that the listeners can tell one
amp from another. Thus in such cases any 'preference' may have nothing to
do with the actual sounds produced.

2) When people do such tests and some of the amps compared have high
distortion, or they differ a great deal in frequency response, then people
may be able to tell one amp from another.

3) This implies that the perceived difference *when the exist* are due to
'known' factors like high distortion, etc.


The status of such changes is less clear. For example we can put forward
two examples of hypotheses which might explain your assertions about
'bringing you closer'.

A) That the alterations tend to cancel other imperfections elsewhere in
the reproduction chain.

B) That the alterations 'enhance' the ability of (some?) people to hear
the details they wish to hear.

However I don't know of any tests which show any evidence that would
support one of the above ideas and/or contradict the other.

Also, (A) has the inherent problem that we could expect the imperfections
'elsewhere' to vary from one recording/broadcast to another, and with
one user's speakers, room, etc, to another. Thus making the quest to
find an amp that does this when you play more than one item in one
room pointless.

And if (B) is the case, the question becomes - why do people like Iain
not arrange for the recording/broadcast to *already* have the desired
forms?



Of course if you put amps on the bench and carry out the usual
measurements then any number of amps using ss gain devices with gobs of
feedback will MEASURE lower distortion on THE PARAMETERS YOU MEASURE.
Put the amps into a system and as I have just said, many - and again I
do mean many - listeners find that amplifiers using valves as gain
devices are audibly CLOSER to the real thing. Why is this so difficult
to unerstand? As for your patronising comment that Keith is just a merry
peasant who 'likes his own thing' it's really beneath you, though lately
I've been wondering just what is beneath you. Andy .

The problem here is with using "closer to the real thing" as a synonym for
"changes the sounds in ways I prefer and help me to appreciate the music".

Thus your use of "closer" may have nothing to do with fidelity, or indeed,
making the result sound more like the actual original.

None of the above is a reason for people to stop enjoying using valve amps
if this is what they prefer. Indeed, if - for example - the amp alters the
response in a way that counters a problem with the response of their
speakers or room, that makes good sense, The problem arises when you make
sweeping statements of faith about this, when the actual evidence implies
otherwise or simply gives no support for your beliefs.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
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Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html
.

Relevant Pages

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