Re: Just how dead are SACD and DVD-A?


"Jim Lesurf" <jcgl@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote


OK, I've got some time, I'm waiting for me Shuguangs to cool down! :-)

(Then it's scraping rock-hard grout off the new kitchen floor 'case anyone
thinks I've got the Life of Reilly!! :-)


>> Some 'artists' will never have enough chimps or merry-go-rounds. I
>> suspect if most (?) musicians were offered a set fee for a gig,
>> irrespective of outcome, they would still be happy to do it. (Works for
>> Naxos, apparently...??) Stars who get too expensive would soon be
>> replaced by other talent, market forces would settle the levels as it
>> usually does..
>
> That is fine. But it is the decision of the *artist* if they are willing
> to
> work for free, or for a fee, or for royalties, or to go home.


Fee, fee, fee....

>
> Once they have decided that, and made an agreement with their publishers,
> they proceed on that basis.
>
> But this does not include their agreeing that you can take a copy of their
> work, and pay them nothing, if you so wish, regardless of what they have
> decided and agreed with their publishers.


Who says so? You really do have to stop laying down the Law!

AFAIAA, there are a number of artists who actively promote the free
ditribution of their work. Also, I would have thought that *haveing accepted
a one-off payment* for some work, the greater its ditribution the better -
no?


>> I wasn't talking about *schoolteachers* per se - we all learn from a
>> number of different sources. Time was you had to pay cash up front to
>> learn your trade but, having done so, you didn't expect to pay
>> 'royalties' forever after. Up until very recent times you repaid your
>> parents for their input by feeding and sheltering them when they were
>> too old to do it for themselves etc. etc...
>
> I'm afraid you are still evading the issue. :-) The reality is that
> 'intellectual property' is the term used to include created work whose
> value is in the ideas it contains. If someone comes up with new ideas
> which
> others may then wish to use, why should they not expect to be paid for the
> work - real time and effort - put into producing it?


No reason at all in your quid pro quo world Jim....


>
> And if you won't pay, why should anyone bother to come up with new ideas
> and allow you to know about them? Why should they bother? They will wish
> to
> eat, and have a home to live in. If they can't get income from such ideas,
> they may as well do something else - indeed they may *have* to do
> something
> else.


I'm sorry, I really cannot address these points in anything other than
sweeping generalisations, otherwise it simply take too long. All I will say
to you is that it *seems* to be that nothing truly worthwhile was ever done
just for the money and that the scads of money that might result from an
idea or whatever do nothing, in the final analysis, for the originators of
those ideas.

History is littered with stories of people whose lives have been fucked up
by material success and also of various incredible geniuses whose lives have
been a financial disaster.

I walked away from money 10 years ago (aided by a massive) recession. I am
without doubt one of the poorest subscribers here and probably the least
bothered about all the shitty little 'money things' that people's lives are
consumed by. IOW, I so couldn't give a *** you wouldn't believe it!!
Believe me!!



> Not if I have *made the decision* to allow the work to be read with no fee
> or charge. But that is my decision as the author of the work.
>
> But I *do* expect payment for other works I have (and still do) write.


If you had done as much work for *free* as I have you might see things more
like I do, but lets not bother with all that...



>> Creating a tangible something is one thing, taking (usually) the ideas
>> and experience (and teachings) of others and adapting them into
>> something new is not quite the same thing. Try to get out of this 'it's
>> my *own* idea so it belongs to me forever after' box - not everything
>> is done for financial gain and not everybody is paid (or expects to get
>> paid) for their efforts which get into the public domain....
>
> I'm afraid you are inventing your own 'box' here and using as the basis
> for
> a 'straw man' argument. :-)


No, forget the 'Usenetology' I don't take any notice of it - the box I'm
referring to is your unending concern with 'fair reward' - since when has
'reward' ever been fair? Does the fact that you 'genius's' bright idea need
the sweat of poorly paid little old ladies somewhere along the line to make
it all possible ever enter in your rather self-righteous thinking?

Your bright idea 'intellectual property' types don't get to travel the tube
to their next meeting without 'ghosts' oiling the hinges somewhere or other
all day long...


>
> The reality is that some authors genuinely produce new ideas, or provide
> fresh data which was not previously available elsewhere. This took work -
> time and effort. If you want the results, why should they not expect to be
> paid? Indeed, if no-one will pay, why should they produce such work? Thus
> leaving us without new ideas and data which we may benefit by.


Pay paid pay paid pay paid...

If it weren't for the fact that 95% of the world's population wasn't burning
its precious few years off working in the 'figurative rubber dog***
factory' in pursuit of wealth or the means to buy largely meaningless crap I
could perhaps have a little more sympathy for your POV, but you are
expounding your own form of exploitation (wanting to create wealth by doing
something the next can not) and I find it all a bit tedious...

I have stated this here before - my grandfather (farm worker) died in the
60s and there was about 3.6K under his bed in unopened wage packets. I'm not
unlike him in my approach to money, effort/reward. 'intellectual property',
'landowning' etc and all the other things, many of which you seem to be
caught up on. (My youngest son is much the same!!)

In the 'audio context' this translates to me as seeing the MI ripping people
of for the price of CDs, paints them as greed, self-seeking bastards and
deserving all the 'piracy' they get! (Stated in extreme terms to make the
point...)

Anyway, as I have said before, we are never going to see eye to eye on any
of this...


>> Sure, you get paid for a job of work. Do you expect 'royalties' from it?
>> If you punt an idea and someones takes it and makes themselves a
>> millionaire from it do they owe you anything?
>
> Have you not heard of patents? :-)


Ask yourself what was the point of asking that?

>
> I'm afraid, Keith, that you describe an unreal world where either no-one
> ever has any new ideas, or when they do, producing them involved no work
> or
> effort on their part. The reality is that years, or decades, of study or
> research may be involved. It may also require skill, which has been
> developed from long effort.


No, I describe an alternative world where people wake up to the harsh
realities which I would try to sum up simply as 'the world's a fantastic
place made *** by idiots like themselves scurrying around for a few lousy
bucks which they will be too old enough to enjoy when they've got enough of
them'....

You either see what I'm driving at, or you don't....


>
> If you don't want the results, then fair enough. Don't use them, and don't
> pay. But if you do, then expect the people who put in the work to expect
> to
> be paid.


Be it money or summat else - I reckon I *pay in* more or at least the same
as I get out...


>> Copyright is only a concept.
>
> Nice slogan. Reminds me of "Property is Theft". :-)


Don't knock what you don't understand - it's easy to take the piss, it's a
damn sight harder to *evolve* a bit...


> Yes. I have also produced some 'freeware'. However that is *the author's
> decision*. Not yours.


Yes, what's your point??



>> > I think so: You mean you've never bought a map or a guidebook, and
>> > think they should all be produced by people who should work for
>> > nothing? :-)
>
>
>> I think you are missing the point....
>
> Actually, you are missing the point. :-)


No, actually actually you're *still* missing the point...


>
>
>
>> Anyway, this is all getting a little too far from my original point
>> which that 'corporate greed' causes piracy when it comes to recorded
>> music. Nothing you say will change my mind - things only stop getting
>> ripped off when it's not worth the effort to do it, high prices only
>> encourage (or even cause) it.....
>
> I'm afraid that "Nothing you say will change my mind..." may be a synonym
> for "My mind's made up, don't confuse me with the facts." :-)


I can't believe you bothered to pen that....


> It is much easier to regard 'money' as unimportant when you have some,
> than
> when you don't. :-)


....or that! ;-)


>
> I appreciate that you may be a Socialist/Communist/Syndicalist. In those
> social/economic models there may be no need for 'royalties' as those who
> create intellectual works can get the things they need to live and prosper
> in exchange for their work with no 'money' as such - at least in
> principle.


Yes, in principle...


>
> Alas, in such societies, one of the 'prices' to be paid was that authors
> had to be 'recognised by the state' to get an income from what they did.
> This then leads to some people being prevented or impeded from producing
> books, music, etc, because the official bodies of the state did not
> approve
> of them.


Wrong 'states' then....??

You think suppression (and oppression) doesn't exist in the Land Of The Free
then? (For example...)


>
> Also, in reality, even 'communist' states seem to have gone on using
> 'money' with no sign of it vanishing as Marx promised. Interesting that
> this crept into Star Trek, though. :-)


More than interesting, for a silly work of fiction....


Mind you, although Americans
> revere Paine, I doubt many have actually read what he wrote. I suspect
> many
> would have a panic attack if they did. 8-]


Well I certainly haven't - I got a *little* way with Wood*** a long time
ago though - not too far, but far enough to start questioning the underlying
reasons most people say and do what they do.... :-)




.