Re: RPI & train fares


On 18 Feb, 13:26, rail <r...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

In message <b94ac663-cbab-4059-b34b-3c5409e69...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
          Mizter T <mizte...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On 18 Feb, 10:50, rail <r...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

In message
<dbc7f43d-a162-4928-ae29-a8ae8da7f...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
          Mizter T <mizte...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

[significant snip - see posts upthread for context]

It's the legislation that dictates the contracts.

The legislation doesn't dictate the contracts - it guides them, but it
does not dictate them in a literal and ultra-prescriptive way.

Which is not what I meant.

If you don't believe me then please refer to where a template contract for
franchised passenger rail services exists in any of the relevant
legislation - you'll spend a long time looking for it, because it doesn't
exist.

I'm sure it doesn't, but incompetent legislation is going to lead to faulty
contracts, which is what i was getting at.

Understood.

[more snipping]

I'd imagine that the contracts were not only run past the department's
in-house legal team but also reviewed by external commercial contract
law specialists at the very least - though I'd think they'd actually
have been involved in the contract drafting process from a far earlier
stage.

Why would you imagine that?

Because I've got some idea of how these things work. When a government
department or agency drafts a big contract for procuring goods or services
from a private company, they retain specialist external commercial lawyers
to advise them through the process. This is quite sensible - in-house
government lawyers are not necessarily that au-fait with the rough and
tumble of commercial contractual law.

Point taken, but I suspect the original section about limiting certain fares
was put in the original draft by the government lawyers and wouldn't, then,
have been commented on by an external review.  There were much more complex
provisions to sort out and the RPI+1 provision was obviously a political sop.

Possible I suppose. I imagine that it wouldn't have received an awful
lot of attention whether from the policy, financial or legal people -
but I can't imagine it was completely overlooked by all of them.

I'm not sure the original draft would have been written by the in-
house lawyers actually, but that's by the by.


Even if they were you are still asking for them to imagine the
unimaginable. Historically economic mismanagement has lead to an increase
in the RPI, not a decrease.  Government economic policy (if it can be
dignified with such a word) was to maintain a continuing inflation rate
of around 2%.  Up till now all the effort was on keeping it /down/ to
that figure. The concept of inflation dropping below zero was never
contemplated.

Nonsense. Any legal team worth their salt would spot such an obvious
flaw in a contract if it were entirely predicated on increases and
didn't take account of the possibility of decreases.

But decreases don't happen, so why worry about the possibility.  It's not
such an obvious flaw if you believe that such circumstances would never
arise.  Go back a couple of years and suggest we'd be experiencing negative
inflation now and you'd be laughed out the door.

Look at bank contractual bonuses, the contracts make no provision for a
situation where bonuses shouldn't be paid because no one envisaged that ever
happening.  So a bank official is contractually entitled to a bonus on his
activities in one contract period despite the fact his deals all unravelled
in the next.  And there's no provision for a negative bonus when the relevant
figures go below zero.

Fair enough, you make a strong point. I still think it would have been
picked up upon. And this is a multi-million pound government contract
which is rather different from one concerning bankers remuneration.
Lawyers are paid (very handsomely) to consider what would happen in
circumstances that many others think will never arise - I think the
idea of a decrease is a fairly obvious example of such a circumstance,
as opposed to one that really is unimaginable. I dare say that we
should just agree to differ on this specific point!

Indeed, the actual franchise agreement (available on the DfT website)
is likely to make this clear - I'll go through it later if I can.


I'm not convinced we will get negative inflation, there are too many external
factors, not least of which is the collapsing pound in an economy as reliant
on physical imports as ours is.

Agreed - but if it does happen (or even if people simply think it will
happen) then the economy will grind into an even lower gear than it is
already.


I'd bet an All Line Rail Rover that this is the case.... well,
actually maybe just a London Day Travelcard - the financial crises was
brought on by people making reckless bets after all!

ROTFL, I'll settle for a beer at the Acton Works Open Day!


Ha! Can't make this one but perhaps in the future... when the price of
beer has come down!
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Have You Had Your Yearly Eye Exam?
    ... conflict which can sometimes arise between what your employer wants ... scientists and production folk. ... Lawyers do not usually get involved ... sponsored scientific researcvh where the contract includes submission ...
    (alt.support.diabetes)
  • Re: TR:UK - does good English matter?
    ... the ultimate put down is to be told by a Russian interpreter ... clear to what the subordinate clause refers. ... one on behalf of our lawyers, ... the one who agreed to use the Code Napoleon for a contract ...
    (uk.railway)
  • Re: OT - Air America Bankrupt
    ... No. That's what lawyers are for, i.e., reading a contract. ... There were numerous liabilities in the agreement. ... There was also no details on Gloria Wise in the ...
    (alt.guitar.amps)
  • Re: OT Who cares about same-sex marriage?
    ... called a contract, drawn up by lawyers only, then signed just like any other contract is executed. ... When there is a breach, the parties involved will be sued for damages, sue each other, lawyers get their cut too. ... Kids, if there is any, will become real property, to be owned by one of the parties in dispute and a dollar value assigned to each kid, along with material items of course. ...
    (alt.sports.basketball.nba.la-lakers)
  • Re: OT: Red Cross Debit Cards being sold for 25 cents on the Dollar.
    ... >> radio stations from lawyers who warn that think with your head and not ... > you sign a contract with FEMA or the like, yeah, read the contract! ... > known dead from the terrorist attack on September 11, 2001, this site will ...
    (rec.arts.tv.soaps.cbs)