Re: amazing to watch the clown making 'promises'...and anyone taking him seriously for one moment....

On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 17:34:36 +0100, James Hammerton
<jah.usenet@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

AlanG wrote:
On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 19:29:23 +0100, James Hammerton
<jah.usenet@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

AlanG wrote:
snip
Not necessarily. None of them will fight against the EU but standing
on the sidelines is no longer an option. The libdems at least call
for more subsidiarity. Both tory and labour have form on
centralisation of powers.
The Lib Dems supported Maastricht and Lisbon and reneged on their
promise of a referendum on Lisbon long before Lisbon was ratified. They
have easily been the most pro-EU and uncritical of the EU of all the
parties. They talk about subsidiarity, but so do the EU!

Indeed.
So what is your solution?

Oppose further centralisation of power and promote decentralisation and
greater accountability of the EU institutions (if we must stay in).

Pretty much what the libdems are calling for

Withdrawal is unlikely so the only thing to do is dive in and get the
best deal possible and you can't get that standing on the sidelines.

Opposing Lisbon wouldn't be "standing on the sidelines". It would have
fallen if a single country failed to ratify it.

Or those who wanted it would have gone ahead anyway


The EU is badly flawed in its current incarnation but there is
potential for a better system. I'd rather see the UK in front trying
to shape it. I am a supporter of a federal EU but only if it has a
constitution and bill of rights that aren't the weasel worded stuff
they have tried to shove down our throats. Something based on the US
system (with all it's faults) would surely be better than what we have
now.
Agreed, but I don't see the Lib Dems offering that or making it any more
likely. Worse, ISTM they would favour the existing plans for "ever
closer union".

The other two parties will do the same.
If we are staying in then we don't have much option except to go along
and try and direct the movement to our advantage.
We can oppose further integration. Our government could, it it wanted
to, have stopped Lisbon. The Lib Dems are the least likely of the 3 main
parties to take such a position. They'd have us in the Euro in a flash.


Stopping closer integration only allows other countries to form a sub
group like Schengen.

So what?

We have laws against cartels. Why let states form them?


We should be in there fighting for British values
not coming along ten years later to find everything stitched up.

We are in the EU, we could have fought against Lisbon. The Lib Dems
would likely go along with whatever proposals for further integration
come along, more so even than Labour or the Tories.

The Lisbon treaty was negotiated by all states. I have no reason to
believe any of the parties in the UK would behave any differently.
Although I think the Lisbon treaty was a stitch up and a referendum
should have been held on it.


Or leave altogether

This option becomes more attractive each time a treaty gets rammed
through despite countries saying "no" along the way.

Indeed.
I'm a supporter of a united europe but not the current incarnation
.

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