Re: amazing to watch the clown making 'promises'...and anyone taking him seriously for one moment....



On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 19:29:23 +0100, James Hammerton
<jah.usenet@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

AlanG wrote:
On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 17:09:36 +0100, James Hammerton
<jah.usenet@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
snip
The most I'd expect them to wring out on that front is cancellation of
ID cards and perhaps watering down of any new proposals to erode civil
liberties.
That will surely depend on who needs them for government. Are you
saying the tories are lying about rolling back the labour stasi state?
No, the context was the Lib Dems propping up Labour. If they prop up the
Tories I'm far more hopeful, it's just ISTM they'd prefer to prop up Labour.

If we get a hung parliament then I suspect a tory government would be
more to their liking.

I disagree:

http://liberalconspiracy.org/2010/03/03/no-denying-it-libdems-are-closer-to-labour-than-tory-voters/

I look at what they say not what people think they say.
There is a lot I don't like about libdems not least is the usual
parroting of cracking down on crime and anti social behaviour. usually
a euphemism for stopping people doing what they have been doing for
centuries. They are more Grieve than Straw and neither likeable


If we get a hung parliament I would rather see the libdems holding the
balance than the loyalists as we had at one time.

Meanwhile they are even more pro-EU than Labour and liable to
expand the role of the state just as much as Labour otherwise.

There is little chance of any party withdrawing us from the EU now.
Agreed, but the Lib Dems will support further centralisation of EU power
more readily than the other parties.

Not necessarily. None of them will fight against the EU but standing
on the sidelines is no longer an option. The libdems at least call
for more subsidiarity. Both tory and labour have form on
centralisation of powers.

The Lib Dems supported Maastricht and Lisbon and reneged on their
promise of a referendum on Lisbon long before Lisbon was ratified. They
have easily been the most pro-EU and uncritical of the EU of all the
parties. They talk about subsidiarity, but so do the EU!

Indeed.
So what is your solution?
Withdrawal is unlikely so the only thing to do is dive in and get the
best deal possible and you can't get that standing on the sidelines.



The EU is badly flawed in its current incarnation but there is
potential for a better system. I'd rather see the UK in front trying
to shape it. I am a supporter of a federal EU but only if it has a
constitution and bill of rights that aren't the weasel worded stuff
they have tried to shove down our throats. Something based on the US
system (with all it's faults) would surely be better than what we have
now.
Agreed, but I don't see the Lib Dems offering that or making it any more
likely. Worse, ISTM they would favour the existing plans for "ever
closer union".


The other two parties will do the same.
If we are staying in then we don't have much option except to go along
and try and direct the movement to our advantage.

We can oppose further integration. Our government could, it it wanted
to, have stopped Lisbon. The Lib Dems are the least likely of the 3 main
parties to take such a position. They'd have us in the Euro in a flash.


Stopping closer integration only allows other countries to form a sub
group like Schengen. We should be in there fighting for British values
not coming along ten years later to find everything stitched up.

Or leave altogether
.



Relevant Pages

  • Re: amazing to watch the clown making promises...and anyone taking him seriously for one moment....
    ... the context was the Lib Dems propping up Labour. ... but the Lib Dems will support further centralisation of EU power more readily than the other parties. ... The Lib Dems supported Maastricht and Lisbon and reneged on their promise of a referendum on Lisbon long before Lisbon was ratified. ...
    (uk.politics.misc)
  • Re: amazing to watch the clown making promises...and anyone taking him seriously for one moment....
    ... 'promising' a million high tech jobs after 'employing' a million new ... We are now not much more than a month away from a 5 May election, and even if Labour hold out to June it's only a couple of months before we go to the polls. ... I expect the Lib Dems to prop Labour up in such circumstances unless the arithmetic ensures that only a Tory-LibDem coalition is the only workable proposition in town. ... The Lib Dems supported Maastricht and Lisbon and reneged on their promise of a referendum on Lisbon long before Lisbon was ratified. ...
    (uk.politics.misc)
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  • Re: amazing to watch the clown making promises...and anyone taking him seriously for one moment....
    ... promise of a referendum on Lisbon long before Lisbon was ratified. ... best deal possible and you can't get that standing on the sidelines. ... but I don't see the Lib Dems offering that or making it any more ... The other two parties will do the same. ...
    (uk.politics.misc)
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