Re: Ban on votes for prisoners is illegal, says EU

On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 01:45:08 -0800 (PST), Mel Rowing
<mel.rowing@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Nov 11, 5:36 pm, MM <kylix...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 03:20:50 -0800 (PST), Mel Rowing

There really is no good reason as to why this once great nation
should
be ruled by Europe. You know that! You've been trying all these years
to think of one.

And yet most other countries in the EU (except the new joiners) are
subject to exactly the same rules as Britain, but have not turned out
to be quite so much the basket case that Britain is. Remember what the
IMF said in the past few days about Britain facing the worst recession
of all equivalent economies? Remember what I said elsewhere about us
being the yob capital of Europe and now the shoplifting capital of
Europe? Remember that Unicef finding which deemed Britain to be the
worst country for children to grow up in? Remember that we have 13
days worth of gas storage, but France has 122 days and Germany has 99.
Remember our DNA database and the one million profiles on it of
people, including some 30,000 chldren, who have never been convicted
of any crime. Remember the 4,000-odd CCTV cameras and also remember
the also complete lack of any throughout the rest of Europe. Remember
the ease with which the government extradites people to America and
with what alacrity it misues the anti-terror legislation to freeze
Icelandic assets. Remember the suck-up role played by Britain in
extraordinary rendition, that might have been expressly designed to
foment hatred of Britain and thus encourage terrorist attacks that
Britain keeps saying we need to be wary of?

Remember all these and another dozen negative international markers
where we just churn 'em in without even trying too hard! Why aren't
other countries in quite the same boat as the British? Could it have
something to do with the *British* government, perhaps? And little to
do with the EU?

I think that we've been down this road before!

You really cannot make such simple comparisons. For example, in
relation to shop lifting figures, are you talking value or volumes
(incidences) if the former are we taking exchange rates and price
differentials into account? Even if you do, you certainly cannot make
such direct associations.

Nonetheless, in order to get us away from these dilemmas and for the
sake of argument I am going to accept at face value every thing you
say. This country really is a dreadful place populated by indolent
people and so on.

Right! Did it it ever occur to you whilst you were compiling your
little list that we have been part of the EU or its precursor for over
30 years? Is it an unreasonable expectation therefore that over this
time, in the words of the song, things should only be getting better
or could it be your thesis that they already have?

The EU might be the best thing since sliced bread that ever happened
to Europe (I don't believe it is but that's another argument) but, by
your own testimony, it certainly isn't the best thing to happen to the
UK.

Whilst I would agree that this government is appalling and even go
further to say that the next one, regardless of colour, will be no
better, are you interested in looking for the deep seated reason as to
why this should be?

What do you expect of an institution that has over the years voted
away piecemeal the very purpose of its existence other than its
atrophy? We have had a classic example over the past few days. Here we
are in a global financial crisis of a greater magnitude certainly in
my lifetime yet what are our leaders doing? Arguing about how they are
going to give away that which they haven't got! Posturing in readiness
for an election which is probably at least 18 months away. Why?
Because when it all boils down, they've nothing better to do. They're
hog tied!

National politics has ceased to be a debate as to how the country
should be run. Those decisions are now out of our hands. It's now a
debate as to which clique should be in a position of pseudo power for
the meantime and it's the same right across Europe.

Now we come to me and others like me.

I'm not indolent, I'm not dishonest nor uninformed nor uneducated. Do
I strike you as lacking the intellectual capacity to engage in a real
democratic process? Why must I be kept at barge pole length from the
political process? Why should I suffer rule and taxation without
representation? Why should I be forced into a pseudo state amongst
people with whom I share neither language nor culture.

Just what do I get out of it? A question I've seemingly been asking
and you've seemingly been seeking an answer for years.

In Lincoln/Locke's words "No man is good enough to rule another
without that others consent, Government for the people by the people
shall not perish"

What he/they did not say is that the alternatives will.

You say you're not indolent and I believe you. But there are different
kinds of indolence and I think the one we all suffer from in the UK is
the kind associated with being interested in how we are governed.
While you and I can argue the toss until the cows come home, the
majority are quite happy to let the world pass them by and let any and
all political decisions wash over them. Most people either think that
everything is just "systems normal all f***ed up" and there's nothing
they can do, or they don't even recognise we have a problem. Also, I
think the British are incredibly bad at informing themselves about
other countries and their political processes. We tend to think, in
our hubris as a nation, "well, of course the rest of the world is like
us only worse, innit?"

Back to the EU and the ONLY way ANYthing will be achieved in the way
that you want is by gathering enough support for a movement to
protest, to "kick against the pricks". Look at Tsvangirai and how he
is continually battling for democracy, despite being beaten up and
hospitalised, despite international recognition of Zimbabwe's plight,
despite everything, he just keeps on going. Where is the passion in
Britain to change the system? I don't see it at all, not even
lukewarm. All we ever manage is grumbling to each other in bus queues.

Therefore, we just carry on to the end of 2008, then comes 2009. 2009
will generate just as much noise over the EU, the treaty, the straight
bananas, the metric martyrs and so on. And then comes 2010. Fact
remains that *we* in Britain face the worst recession. Not Germany,
not France, not Holland and so on. We therefore *must* have done
things differently (i.e. made things worse), despite any EU influence,
than the rest of the Continent.

MM
.

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