Re: Boris aide: Run schools for profit

On Jun 30, 12:30 pm, Dr Quite <qu...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"Dr. Barry Worthington" <sh...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote innews:54f9ea44-3494-4cae-891e-1ecbafe210c9@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx:

Ever since medieval times, education has been considered a
charitable object. It was so considered in the Elizabethan
Charities Act of (I think) 1601, the provisions of which still
inform English law. You are not supposed to make money out of
education.

Teachers make money out of education. Cleaners, text book publishers,
and dinner ladies too.

That is a very silly thing to say. Schools, universities, and similar
institutions are not profit making institutions.

What do you call the money teachers go home with every month if you don't
call it profit?

A salary? (In the old days, a stipend.)

I'm trying to work out what your assumptions are, so forgive me for
speculating (it might shunt the argument along a bit): I'm getting the
impression you believe profit only means profit gained by individuals who
provide capital in the form of money - i.e. something like rent. And you
don't believe that individuals who are paid for providing labour gain
profit.

Exactly so. There is hardly any correlation between labour and
monetary reward in most teaching...


Virtually all private
schools in this country are charitable institutions.

Being charitable doesn't mean you should impoverish yourself.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

Sir Simon, who is also head of the Local Government Association,
said the national teachers' pay scale should be scrapped so that
good staff could be paid more than ordinary ones.

And how do you decide which are the good staff?

Presumably, schools will decide that

How, exactly?

I don't know, exactly. Don't they assess staff any more? This seems like
a question of the mechanics to me - solvable by anybody with enough
experience.

Well, Thomas Gradgrind thought so.....

and parents will note which schools
have the best staff.

Which is not much use if you cannot send your children theire...if,
under this silly man's system, the school is oversubscribed, for
example.

OK, we seem to have reached an ideological impasse. You believe all
schools should be equal because if they weren't, some people would get an
unfair advantage. I believe they shouldn't be equal, and that in a
general way "all boats rise on a rising tide" - meaning that if you allow  
them the freedom to meet the needs of people instead of the needs of
government, you'll see a general improvement.

Is this fair?

No, you don't understand. If all schools were equal, in the sense that
each tin of baked beans is more or less identical, there would be no
problem in matching supply to demand. But if you do not, say, have a
catchment area, and parents can choose any school in a town or city,
what will happen? They will choose the school perceived to have the
best results/smallest classes/ right kind of kids etc. But those
schools can only take a fine number of pupils. So what happens if you
can't get your child in that school? Conversely, schools in poorer
areas will become 'sink schools'. I've seen this happen. Is that what
you want?

There would be casualties, I'm sure. But nobody seems to be suggesting
the law of the jungle here.

I really think that they are....




Is he suggesting a
return to the old victorian system of 'payment by results', with
all its abuses and inequities? If you scrap the national pay
structure, you will distort recruitment.

What do you mean by "distort recruitment"? Favouring good teachers
over bad teachers would be a distorition of recruitment...

If you have different schools/areas offereing different rates of pay,
you will end up with places where no-one will want to work. As simple
as that.

But ultimately, with the introduction of beastly capitalism, this will
reflect places where nobody wants to send their children.

And how is this problem resolvable? In the short term?

In remarks that infuriated the teaching unions, Sir Simon said of
privatising state schools: "I have no difficulty with that idea.
My view, and the LGA's view, is that councils are not meant to run
schools any more."

Why? Who will if they do not?

The schools themselves, with their structures of governors, PTAs and
staff? Doesn't seem like a crazy idea.

Actually, it is, since such schools will not be treated equitably.

Do you mean equitably, or equally? If the former, the suggestions seem to
offer a way of introducing equity where there's been little until now. If
the latter, then why would you want to treat a bad school equally with a
good school?

Because children in a bad school deserve the same chances.

Instead, town halls should buy education services from whichever
provider they thought best suited to supply them, he added. Then
authorities should monitor their progress.

And how do you plan for school numbers under this system?

The same way you planned before. Where's the problem?

Because, in a freemarket sytem, you inevitably have skewed intakes and
oversubscribed schools.

Yes, I imagine this would be true. Doesn't stop you planning for it
though.

How would you plan for something like that? It's just a pointless
exercise.

"The future is to have different types of school to ensure there
is real parental choice," Sir Simon said in an interview with The
Times, although he ruled out allowing them to select by academic
ability.

So how will children be selected?

Currently, even city academies are not allowed to make a profit
for their commercial sponsors.

So why have them in the first place?

Outside organisations brought in to turn
around failing education authorities, such as the Learning Trust
in Hackney, are not-for-profit charities.

Indeed.

Sir Simon's break with official Tory policy that profit-making
should not be allowed in state education could be an embarrassment
for both Mr Johnson and party leader David Cameron.

Yes. The man is a fool.

His remarks forced shadow education secretary Michael Gove to slap
them down, saying: "The money we spend on education should stay
within education." He said more private firms should be allowed to
run state schools - but only on condition they recycled excess
cash back into those institutions.

But why should private firms run education at all? Why should
anyone make a profit out of our children?

Think of the children. Private firms have to respond to the market,
which means they'd have to respond to the wishes of parents and
children.

You really believe that don't you?

Funnily enough, yes.

But why?

And
presumably regulators too, since I doubt anyone's suggesting running
them like shops.

Oh, Give it time.....

Chris Keates, general secretary of the NASUWT teachers' union,
said: "Sir Simon's comments suggested that the sector would face
massive upheaval under a Tory government. State education is about
social justice and protecting the weak, vulnerable and
disadvantaged. If you make all that subject to profits, you will
be throwing the public service ethos out of the window."

A free market in education is unworkable anyway. I would have
thought that was obvious.

Not to me it isn't. It would work, pretty obviously, just like
restaurants, banks, and language schools work.

Do you know much about the education system?

It depends what you mean by much. But I imagine you're quite an expert on
it, and know the intricacies in much greater detail than me.

You don't go into education if you want to make money. Trust me!

Dr. Barry Worthington


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