Re: The United States of Europe
- From: creusa <suewhiteman2706@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 08:02:35 -0800 (PST)
On 15 Dec, 10:46, Maria <mariathom...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 17:16:18 -0500, FACE <AFaceInTheCr...@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Who is beginning to see the EU this way.............or not at all this way.
How does it differ in substance?
We don't know yet. Sarkozy wants some 'wise men' to 'think up a new
dream for Europe'. Sounds a bit like an arranged marriage - you don't
get to find out what's on offer until it's too late to get out of it.
The 'new dream' is a notion that shows us up for the idiots we are -
signing up to agree to buy something and you don't even know what it
is yet.
Maria, usually you have something sensible to say.
However I suggest that i stead of al this generalised emotional
garbage, think again.
The UK knew exactly what it was signing up for. They had wanted
membership for years but was rebuffed by deGaulle. When the UK joined
do you think they hadn't thought about it long and hard? The UK has
more opt-outs and rights of disengagements than any other nation.
As for the future, does ANY nation know what its future is? The UK
gets a new direction about every ten years when we vote out the old
and bring in the new. And you are dreaming if you think that GB isn't
a BIG part of the changes the EU undergoes. Of course the EU has
changed a lot recently,,,there are now 27 members not the original 5
when it started. Every family has to change to accommodate new
members.
How can such a monolithic organisation not even know what its
direction is? And why does it need one? That perhaps is the difference
between the EU and the USA - the USA just is because it is -
Maria, the US is undergoing as I write a HUGE problem about its
identity and its place in the world. Its problems also include a far
too fixed an idea about rights, materialistic evaluation, the
Constitution or die mentality. It doesn't know what to do about
equallity while it makes an enemy of all those who are not white,
midddle class and who speak what they call English. They don't like
the Mexicans, they have bigots who don't like blacks and hang nooses
in their yards, they don't like anything that looks vaguely Muslim,
they like Canada only because canada dors what it is told and it is a
nice place for a holiday. They don't like South America, they don't
like Arabs...in fact if you scratch the surface they don't like anyone
who is not WASP and plays baseball.
The EU is 27 different nations...the US has been one nation for 250
years, once they annihilated the indiginous population. They are
virtually incomparable in terms of direction and limitation.
it's all
this 'thinking about where we go next' that leads to crackpot and
dangerous ideas because they end up doing something for the sake of
it, when they need do nothing.
Maria, this entire conversation is weighted heavily to "the EU needs
to be different...there is a lot wroing with it." So you can't then
say that nothing needs to be done. In GB every day I hear someone in
the media saying that this or that isn't right about Europe. Lately it
is around whether we should have a referendum on the new constitution.
Wat worked for 5 does NOT work for 27. I hope sincerely that the EU
continues to examine itself and evolve as the world changes.
Maybe that is what it is that has
driven the EU to the point it is at now - first it was a simple
conomic area, then a trading bloc, and that has mutated into a vaguely
political union, then a seriously political union, and now a runaway
train with more and more carriages being hooked on, hurtling towards a
cliff.
No...50 years ago, a trading bloc was enough. But think what needs to
be coupled with that...you can't trade as one bloc without harmonising
the rules of trade, quality, price of commodities like milk,
distribution, purchasing power...
They are obsessed with the idea of Union.
And what is wrong with that? We have a voice and we use it. I have all
the faith that the British people will not allow themselves to lose
the rights already enshrined in the EU...that some laws pased are
mandatory, some can be implemented at the time of each nation's
choosing, and that some are only recommendations.
I'll tell you what annoys me...I was riding in France with a hat I
bought at Decathlon there. When I came baack I was told by the stables
that I couldn't use that one, that I had to have one with a British
kite mark. I had to go BACK to Decathlon and buy another one. It was
utter nonsense and health and safety should be more closely
harmonised.
I think I can guess which
way it will go - maybe by that time if British people do bother to
protest, they will simply be imprisoned as dissidents. If they
actually thought about it, they might see that what is happening in
Europe is more than Hitler could have hoped for - centralised control
of an increasingly large amount of territory, with Eastern Bloc
countries desperate to buy into it because the benefits outweigh the
problems at the moment.
Is not that a good thing? Why are you cynically against formeer Soviet
nations being brought along by teh wealthier more stable ones? Do you
not see the benefits for everyone over time? Poor nations usually
become restless and difficult. Wealthy ones are stable, communicative
and contribute to everyone's wellbeing.
They must be desperate, because I for one cannot understand how a
group of countries full of apparently intelligent people, can on
release from the yoke of one political machine, put themselves
immmiediately under another. They must just think we are going to be
nicer to them.
No Maria, because they now finally have a voice, a market , a
protection and a democratic future within people who are historically
akin to them.
.
- References:
- The United States of Europe
- From: FACE
- Re: The United States of Europe
- From: Maria
- The United States of Europe
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