Re: Cameron's Unemployment Knowledge

On Sun, 07 Oct 2007 16:41:43 +0100, Maria
<theoldwomanwholivedinashoe@xxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Sun, 07 Oct 2007 16:19:56 +0200, abelard <abelard3@xxxxxxxxxxx>

i have a fair idea....the people who built and run that system are the
socialist labour party....
a very small factor that seems to escape the ludicrous fellow.....

When you are trying to exist on these things, it doesn't really matter
who put it in place - the same problems exist now that existed 30
years ago. Nobody has made any real attempt to change it.

this is a politics group....
the objective is surely not to merely complain and accept the
situation....but to work towards changing/improving/replacing
'the system'

if you merely want somewhere to gossip or moan there is uk.misc

meanwhile much of *real* incomes are going south.....
the clown's 'economy' is a ponzi scheme....it is a hall of mirrors
and lies...he is steadily destroying the economy....

he is not improving the position of england.....
he is causing the flooding...he is causing the foot and mouth.....
and that is destroying billions.....

yet idiots go on about him 'taking charge'....
they are out of touch with *reality*

I don't know anyone in this group who supports Brown except Mark,
Devon and Frank Booth Snr. Why are we discussing it really?

there are several other apologists.....there's bobbin....
class warriors like abdul and black, thored, ag and others
but little matter

that is approximately how the '30s depression was cured in less 'kind'
times...

and not all people are 'equal'...as you hint....many of them are in
*fact* use-less..and those tend to breed faster than the average.
how do you suppose that will eventually be balanced?

Their children will not be useless? Except that thy will under our
apalling and trendy educational system.

that sounds very close to contradictory!

It is but for a purpose - it means that it doesn't matter how many
sanctions you make against the poor if they never had the
opportunities in the first place due to our failing educational
system.
Unemployment sanctions are sticking plaster - reforming education is
the cure.

ok

but you do tend to act as if you believe this is sustainable...it
isn't....

I don't know if it's sustainable or not - I only know what the problem
is and how to cure it. I don't believe that any Labour or Tory
government will do what is necessary, and it's nothing to do with
forcing people into jobs they don't want.
If the work is dwindling, then we must be more flexible - the benefits
system is *not* flexible. It still behaves as it did in times when
people had 'jobs for life'...

ok....but there is a massive public works opportunity as in the '30s

Where is it? Where are the jobs?

remodeling the housing stock.....putting up windmills....
improving transport infrastructure.....

How do you get one? I see nothing
there, sorry. I'm not saying it doesn't exist (does it?), but how can
the lowest hope to get involved if they don't see it either, or if it
is not offered?

they can't....

cleaning the stables now is going to be a lot more difficult next
year and the next....
and this government is a bunch of useless tossers who appease
the parasites.....and allow them votes

They are parasites themselves. Not all parasites are found in the dole
queue, and at least a doley only steals £45/week...

no argument there

Ok...but it has a knock on effect - maybe people see those people
getting away with obscene expense claims and the like and think that
there must be no harm in doing it themselves. Cleaning up of the act
must take place across the board, not just at the bottom, if it is to
happen at all. The sheep are best led by example...

i think you are correct....but the venal culture is very widespread...

there are still uk companies who will do anything to avoid paying the
rate for the job...endless 'promises' and no action....
one of the games is to state 'i can't raise you wage to the level you
merit....so put in £500 or £1000 a month in expenses to equalise
the situation and i'll sign it off'

meanwhile eventually there will be a citizen's wage...i can but hope
he has the courage to initiate that....but he does have many old
fools like heffer and tebbit and p hitchens to manage/appease
...and even parris....

though very likely blue will still be moaning on and on and on.....


Blue has made a good point which nobody will address.
I made the same point to my (conservative) MP to presented it to the
welfare committee in parliament who answered the bog standard answer
that the mechanisms in place are already sufficient to stop people
being afraid of being left with nothing.
Nobody wants to tackle this, and I doubt anybody knows how anymore,
I do but nobody is asking me.

i know...franchise by examination and a citizen's wage.....

No. Even £50/week would make no difference to those at the bottom -
maybe only those who have lingered at the bottom awhile can know
that...

the point is to steadily raise it until the market clears.....
the point is to stop it being conditional.....you collect the wage
*and* you may supplement it as you wish...or otherwise

What would be wrong with abolishing the minimum wage (gradually if
necessary) so that employers must pay the true market rate, not this
heavily subsidised one?

because there are simply insufficient 'jobs' for the economically
inadequate....
it has been suggested that a new servant class could improve the
situation but the sense of entitlement and the aversion to
'taking orders' excludes chavs....
many of the inadequate are simply not wanted in a modern workplace...
they are just nuisances underfoot

Something must be done to reduce the living costs of Britain - maybe
this is one way. Second way, abolish the civil service jobs Bliar
created so the Public Services bill is smaller. Once the living costs
are reduced, people can afford to take lower paid work and no need to
claim tax credits.

the civil service makework jobs are a corrupt disgrace....it gives
wages and pensions way above the market rate....
those wages are taken from the productive and the poor....

britain is just about the only 'advanced' country that still taxes the
poor....increasingly advanced countries primarily tax the rich...

Raising the tax threshold to where it should be would be a really good
start. It's no good threatening the poor who are in a no-win
poisition, when the person doing the threatening is the one stealing
considerable amounts of their income.

no argument

already cameron is talking of a flat tax for the rich domiciled.....
cameron appears to understand the modern world...

Cameron appears to be using figures which may not be true - see
thursday night's question time. They are loose guesstimates.

the numbers are trivial...the changes are sane and easily met...
the left is simply lying again

the thiko in no. 10 reeks of the puritanism of a different past
world....

blue is raging against cameron....

Because of what he said. He played to the popular perception that
doleys are lazy scroungers and nothing more.
That view is increasingly unpopular among the plebs because they
themselves are dependant on benefits. What you gonna do about that?

rejig the system.....
rejig the education system.....

Rejigging sounds too little. I would wipe the slate clean and start
again.

you can't....people would starve in the streets....
you have to move step by step to allow adjustment time

stop talking cant about the sanctity of work.....

Sorry?

'work' is no longer a necessity for all people....
it is often not even desirable.....

much real 'work' is not monetised......

but there are prior questions....there is an ever growing proportion
of the population who are in *fact* economically use-less in term
of a modern living wage....

Nobody is useless - ask India. :)

i don't believe you....even in india many are not productive.....
neither am i wishing to go back to such a society....

i'm happy to paid see work attenuate....
if people were more able to explore and find their own ways to
contribute to society i think society would end up more
productive...and happier....

there is too much ego involved in 'work'...
there is too much unnecessary hierarchy.....

until recently in the uk you had insufficient medics and insufficient
uni places for people wanting to train....
then you get newly minted medics who can't get 'jobs'.....it is
madness.

you have schools that are useless yet parents who cannot just start
their own schools...
as you say....reform the education system....but when you try you
will get invaded by an army of incompetents trying to intrude,
'advise' or control or otherwise get under your feet....

you can't solve that by offering paying jobs....
and the way the clown goes about things merely criminalises and
de-ethicalises those who cannot keep up....
he is also paying them to breed.....
you couldn't invent a scheme more likely to destroy society.....

Any free money scheme is likely to do that - even the citizen's wage
IMV.

i don't agree....if everyone has it there is no need for the huge
intrusive army of jobsworths to 'administer it.....
there is no need for the petty jealousies as everyone gets it....
there is little market distortion...

can cameron tell the full truth to the parasites....while the clown
is cultivating them into election fodder?

Cameron did not tell the truth - he perpetuated an ugly and unhelpful
untruth and then threatened to pass the buck onto private
organisations to deal with the buck. That's because he knows it is a
political hot-potato.

he is not in power.....
the clown will play his dishonest games with smoke and mirrors....

i don't think you understand how radical the changes will have to be..
if you tell the blues they wont follow or understand....

I think Blue understands perfectly well - what Blue (and myself) will
not accept is that sanctions will solve the problem - it will merely
create more poverty.

not giving someone a dole is not a punishment....
anymore than me not giving you free fags is a 'punishment'

The US is different - they don't pay so much tax at the lower end. We
cannot model a system on that unless we reform other areas.

why is that a problem?

the only point in the few announcements at the conference were to
scare the pants off the clown and set him up for removal....
to expose him for the empty bag of wind he is

look at the chaos maggie was left having to sort out...

Even Maggie knew not to persecute the poor. The one who makes peopel
unemployed when they otherwise would not have been must bear some
responsibility for their welfare subsequently. From a moral point of
view of course.

i've no great argument with that....

unfortunately she also spent the proceeds of oil and privatisation....
and socialist johnny did far worse....

she also didn't tackle the middle class unions...probably on the
principle of the art of the possible....

meanwhile the problems are once more growing....

this is much more complicated....

I think Davies might have had the courage to identify the problem and
maybe even tackle it.

davis is not up to the job....

Camerons is a public school fop who has no idea
what actually happens in the real world in the Jobcentre.

i see no sign of that being anywhere approaching the truth....

PS People who sign on are not 'offered jobs'.

how can you offer a job to a person who doesn't want a job....

Easy - we have found a job that you can apparently do. Please attend
to it or we are taking your UB away. What's so hard about that?

nothing if you have the structure to provide 'jobs'.....
that is precisely what i expect a cameron administration to do....

who couldn't cope if he was offered it.....

Cope in what way?

ignorant......uneducated......stroppy.....
usually a destructive mixture of those 'attributes'

btw....i've worked with such people...
it's a weaning and educative process.....

I know that - the problems with qualifying for and getting benefit
again (and quickly enough) if it goes tits up are enormous - that must
be dealt with.
As must the nature of modern employment - the temporary and uncertain
nature of it. That is the main problem and nobody has really touched
it, but it is the main barrier to someone out of work. Those with
children face additional barriers.
Also the serious lack of training on offer to those who need initial
or retraining.
And ageism.

can't and wont argue with any of that....

the government just gets in the way....badly...
meanwhile this government tries to undermine charities because they
are competition to their monolithic power....
the government *can't* solve the problem
the arrogant fool in no. 10 believes he can.....or doesn't care as
long as he can pose for cameras....

I'm not sure what charities can do to help the unemployed.

they can employ them....
but there is a limit to what i will say because of government
interference....it is already bad enuf....

a stream of charity workers were woven through the tory conference....
real people with real on the ground experience of the real problems
at the bottom and the ways to alter the outcomes

What did they suggest?

above you said you 'know that'.....
there were several with different bees in the bonnet....

but essentially it always comes to the same sort of things...
befriend them....teach them how to get around the government
idiocy...let them fall....be there when they decide to get up
again
teach them when they're prepared to learn...
provide a space where they can go or lie down....
spend money for facilities according to the needs they express....

and keep fighting the fools the government send in to interfere

the labour fest was just arrogant self-congratulatory mindless puff...

IT always is.

true enuf....

regards...

--
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