Re: Educated global-warming plan a fiscal must -- NASA released information showing that solar radiation plays a major role in global warming... NASA researchers recently found clear links between the sun's activity and climate variations.... Some are warn

On 22 Apr 2007 13:39:19 -0700, Mel Rowing <mel.rowing@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

On 22 Apr, 20:12, abelard <abela...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On 22 Apr 2007 12:03:19 -0700, Mel Rowing <mel.row...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

are you confusing incoming radiation with earth reflected radiation?

No!

then please post sommat showing the wavelengths of the
outgoing radiation.....

The clearest absorbtion spectrum I could find:

http://www.wag.caltech.edu/home/jang/genchem/infrared.htm

(fig 5)

Note that 100% of IR radiation is transmitted through CO2 at all
wavelengths except at 4.2um and 15um where the proportion drops to
zero.


and relating this to your claims of
1)only 8% of the (outgoing) radiation.....

If you can wade through

http://www.egglescliffe.org.uk/physics/astronomy/blackbody/bbody.html

then you will see that radiation from a black body object can be
represented by a curve of intensity vs wavelength.

The peak of this curve (i.e. the wavelength at which the highest
proportion of this radiation is emitted) is temperature dependent)

The mathematical functions below these curves can be used to plot a
similar curve for any temperature and hence for the earth. (beyond
that they needn't worry you)

Since the curves represent energy intensities, the area beneath them
through the principle of mathematical integration represents the total
energy output. If the area beneath a curve representing a black body
at the temperature of the earth within the two bands in question is
calculated it comes to ~8% in total.

2) the claim that the relevant wavelengths are already
saturated...

The existance of such fingerprints is beyond dispute. It is the very
essence of spectroscopy. The notion is used to identify minute
adulterants in otherwise pure substances. Not only can minute levels
of a subtance be identified but they can be quantified up to a point.
That is up to a point of extinction where the level is so high that
all (100%) of the relevant wavebands are absorbed. This point can be
calculated empirically by comparing the spectrographs of samples
containing varying but known concentrations of the substance in
question and extrapolating. In reality predetermined reference tables
are used (or used to be! No doubt these days software does the job)

i don't have any problems with absorption bands.....

my problems are with your claims....
1)that the absorption bands are somehow saturated.....

my understanding is that the energy interacts with various 'chemicals'
...primarily at ground/sea level....

but starting with the atmosphere....
1)having absorbed energy of a given incoming 'ray' the carbon
molecule does not somehow stop being an absorber
2)having interacted with a molecule (atmospheric or otherwise)
the energy level (and thus the wavelength) alter.....

this is no static once off process....

next
my reading suggests the absorption bands are not unitary
but (as so often) for distributions.....and that as the central
parts of the absorption activity is 'saturated' the tails of the
distributions become more important....

next....all the model users tend to try scenarios with greater
or lesser atmospheric co2....now, i know full well your physics/
chemistry is much better than my own....
but i am also inclined to believe that thousands using models
in this area must believe that increased co2 is highly relevant
....and i'm sure they also know far more physics/chemistry than
myself....

next....my distribution for co2
http://heloise:8083/briefings/global_warming_atmospheric_chemistry_physics.php
certainly shows 2 peaks for co2....but
it also shows a long tail...

next....
referring to the 'same' diagram....you will see the result of the
incoming radiation interacting with the earth produces a wide
homogenous energy spectrum when compared with the
much more specific incoming energy....
again refer to the diagram!

my reading of all the above is...
yes, the incoming energy may indeed well be not stopped greatly
as it comes down through the atmosphere....~30% is the
atmospheric absorption figure i've seen....but the return
journey will be a far different....and still more complicated
process


perhaps i'm being slow somewhere or there are gaps in my knowledge
of which i don't know.....
but i must first understand where those gaps are...if any...before i
can easily accept your assertions....

maybe i've given you enuf to identify anywhere i should be
educated!

regards

--
web site at www.abelard.org - news comment service, logic, economics
energy, education, politics, etc 1,552,396 document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
all that is necessary for [] walk quietly and carry
the triumph of evil is that [] a big stick.
good people do nothing [] trust actions not words
only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Educated global-warming plan a fiscal must -- NASA released information showing that
    ... represented by a curve of intensity vs wavelength. ... my understanding is that the energy interacts with various 'chemicals' ... By 'incoming' I presume you mean in relation to the molecule (language ... spectrum after 'modification; by interaction with the ...
    (uk.politics.misc)
  • Re: Wide Spectrum IRC Emission Device
    ... I'm currently thinking of a hypothetical device that emits a spectrum ... of EM radiation with a maximum wavelength of 100,000 nm and a minimum ... does not emit any wavelength of EM radiation out side of the IRC ...
    (sci.engr.lighting)
  • Re: Re: Evolution is not a fact
    ... This is radiation energy that travels and as it goes, ... microwaves, and even radio waves. ... energy, identifiable by the speed at which they are moving. ... Light is a part of the electromagnetic spectrum, ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Making pure white light without incandescence -- is it possible?
    ... wavelength of visible light at the exact same intensities? ... If you are in a white room illuminated by nothing but blackbody ... radiation of any color temperature from about 3900 K to about 6500 K, ... 5400 K is very slightly more green than "equal energy white", ...
    (sci.optics)
  • Re: basic energy concept- schrodingers equation
    ... add a certain amount of energy. ... frequency of outgoing radiation. ... The electron itself has a characteristic wavelength also ... wave for example. ...
    (sci.physics)