Re: on the arrogance of ignorance.....


"hummingbird" <OPRBMDQMZNLV@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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On Thu, 20 Apr 2006 15:50:03 +0100 "TD" <tdefries@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

"hummingbird" <OPRBMDQMZNLV@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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On Thu, 20 Apr 2006 11:18:23 +0100 "TD" <tdefries@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

"hummingbird" <OPRBMDQMZNLV@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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On 19 Apr 2006 13:00:40 -0700 "Stephen Horgan" <stephen@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
<snip>
When the North
Koreans maintain a huge army with nuclear weapons while starving their
own people under a grim dictatorship they are just taking 'defensive
measures'?

Nothing to do with the Cold War.
But yes ...NK is taking defensive measures.

ISTM pretty obvious that the NK administration is trying to protect
_itself_, not NK. To this end they keep the North Korean people weak
and
the administration strong, and arm themselves with nuclear weapons to
deter
any humanitarian intervention. What does the average North Korean get
out
of it? Malnourished children? It's fine that these people are starving
and
repressed though, because the NK dictatorship is defending itself
against
the evil West, right?

No, I dislike the state of affairs in NK. I also dislike them in Iraq,
Saudi, Syria, Libya, Zimbabwe, Rwanda, Chad, Sudan, Somalia, much
of Central Asia, most of the rest of Africa and 2 dozen other places.
I also dislike the abuse of police powers in Brazil.

What do you suggest we do about it?

I do not know what can be done.

Ooh dear and damn. I thought you had solutions lined up.

Why?

I'm sure there is a limit to what can be
done. My argument is with your opinion that the North Korean
administration
is taking 'defensive measures'.

How would you describe them?

I thought I made it clear. Go back one or two posts. I consider them to be
measures to protect the NK administration, and to repress the NK people.

When Iran engages in a decade of deception to develop
expensive technology whose only purpose is the production of nuclear
weapons while most of their own people live in poverty and while
threatening to destroy Israel they are just taking 'defensive
measures'?

Totally unprovable and nothing to do with the Cold War.
But yes ....Iran is taking defensive measures.

ISTM a far better way for a 'country' not be attacked is to become a
good
neighbour, avoiding the need to defend itself.

Can you tell me in what way Iran can be a good neighbour?

President Ahmadinejad should calm down the rhetoric, stop the organisation
that's funding 'martydom operations', and get on with the job of helping
to
creating a nuclear weapons-free democratic Iran.

-He didn't start the rhetoric.
Shouldn't Bush calm it down too?

Playground talk. Besides, do you really believe Bush would make noises
about a state that minded its own business?

-Afaik there's no proof of these 'martydom operations' you refer to.
-Afaik there's no proof that he's trying to create nuclear weapons.

Your solution amounts to him shutting up and doing what he's told.

No it doesn't. It amounts to him being a good neighbour and looking after
his people. IMO a former VP of Iran, Mohammad Ali Abtahi, put this point
well on his blog:

'It is not the duty of any politician or governmental official to chant
baseless slogans. A successful politician is one who realizes the realities
and facts ahead of the others therefore before being imposed by the outside
decisions or sacrificing the people of its country can make the proper
decision to safeguard his nation from dangers. Many decisions are not called
withdrawal but are defined as the exigency of politics and statesmanship in
today's world.'

and

'These days there is a lot of advertisement saying that our foreign policy
has become activated and is not passive any more. To my opinion what is more
important than being active or passive, is that people's interest should be
met and this is the main duty of our foreign policy. Any policy in any name
which causes isolation of Iran, increases threats and as a result spends the
financial resources which belongs to people for the slogans, is an
unsuccessful foreign policy. But if the foreign policy takes the threats
away, provides the situation for cooperation with the connected world and
more importantly takes care of the financial resources of the country which
should be spent for the nation rather for the slogans, then that may be
called a successful foreign policy. That's it.'

and

'On the threshold of the global Qods day, Mr. Ahmadinejad's speech that has
asked for Israel'disappearance and has talked about a world without America
and Israel has had an extraordinary reaction in the world. Many powerful
countries have commented on his speech and it has become the headline of
many famous newspapers of the world. Israel is also fishing in the troubled
water and has asked for Iran's dismissal from UN. Israel is the most
non-democratic country in the world and all the accepted humanitarian values
stop at its border. In a way world is Israel's hostage. But it is no art
for the president of a country, whose speech has global effect and his
country has to pay for the good or bad of that, to make crises in the
country.'
....
'In today's world these do not have a good meaning. With so many crises, why
should we invite enemy to our house?'
....
'I wish all the authorities of the country knew their positions and were
aware what positive or negative effects their speech would have on the fate
of this historical and civilized country.'

Understand?



.

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