Re: The Pope and Islam

On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 01:32:02 +0100, abelard <abelard2@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

>On 9 Jan 2006 15:35:16 -0800, "Energumen" <energoumenos@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> typed:
>>abelard wrote:
>>> On Mon, 9 Jan 2006 15:25:15 -0000, "Energumen"
>>> <energoumenos@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>
>>> typed:
>>> >"abelard" <abelard2@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>
>>> >> i'm not primarily concerned with these books though the islamic writings
>>> >> are much more complex/sophisticated than the nonsense of mein kampf
>>> >> or marx....
>>> >
>>> >What do you mean by complex/sophisticated mean? Opaque? They are not THAT
>>> >opaque, especially the Hadith, but even the Koran too. Of course many would
>>> >like to think so.........
>>>

[snip]

>there are texts in the koran that can be argued to support separation of
> church and state...

I'd be interested if you could quote/cite these... I have a copy of an
English translation of the Koran -- you could give me which Sura a
quotation is from or suggest a Sura to read and I should be able to
check it out.

> much is selectivity, emphasis and motivation

ISTM that's always been the case in any religion.

[snip]

>>> >In that sense Islam undergoing a Reformation is not the solution, it is the
>>> >problem. The problem is being caused by people breaking away from
>>> >traditional more moderate paternalistic (Imam knows best) structures
>>> >designed for the pre-literate to those that actually follow the texts. The
>>> >texts are the cause of the problem.
>>>
>>> i can only accept that in a very loose sense...
>>> some priests emphasise hell fire and others emphasise forgiveness...
>>> some are violent in their minds and some are humane....i doubt this
>>> varied much in islam especially before it started getting infected
>>> with nationalism and socialism....
>>
>>Yes, but Islam isn't just a collection of priests and followers. It is
>>a religion with a history and example and teachings of a dead
>>"prophet".
>
>so what...
>in the end it *is* just followers and priests....

Like Marxism...

>the history and teachings are next door to irrelevant....

Well they do provide the means by which the adherents communicate with
their contemporaries and with their descendents (or manipulate them).

>there is a bottom line...behave or take the consequences....

That assumes someone or something will dish out the consequences...

>>> >> next...*i repeat* there are a thousand and one 'interpretations' whether
>>> >> the koran says so or not...or whether the jihadi loons say so or not..
>>> >> what on earth do you think shia and sunni and sufi are about...
>>> >> let alone the endless angel on pins debates about legal meanings....
>>> >
>>> >I'm not concerned about differing interpretations on things that don't
>>> >matter to Islam's compatibility with democracy and human rights. With
>>> >Ahmadiyya you may have a point - they are a special case, with additional
>>> >texts, like Mormons are to Christianity. The differences between Shia and
>>> >Sunni are not relevant to the context of this debate. Sufism is not a
>>> >denomination but is rather a mystical tradition that crosses denominations.
>>>
>>> i'm not in dispute with you i think in terms of crude action...
>>> i am worrying at the logic and the fuzzy focus....
>>
>>You are being fuzzy.
>
>see above..perhaps it will help....
>i don't argue with idiots...jihad is lunacy....i don't argue with it...
> i seek merely to crush it...
>
>>> i think both of us would slam the door shut until we had better structures
>>> and laws in place..
>>> i want the mess of fundamentalism removed from all culture....and yes,
>>> the islamists are the *current* priority if only because they are the
>>> present worst case this week....
>>
>>There is no equation of "fundamentalisms". That's foolish talk.
>>Believing that democracy should be replaced with divine law and
>>believing that Noah's Ark really existed are NOT the same.
>
>certainly they are not 'the same'....but then nothing is 'the same'...
>the whole notion of 'equalities' is irrational unempiric nutz....
>
>today's individual muslims are not 'history' or some past teacher
>it is individuals who are accountable for their own acts....not
> 'history'...

I'd add: Making it clear to those that will listen that they are
individuals who are accountable for their acts, that believing what
their imam says is a *choice* not an obligation, that they can decide
for themselves what they believe will go a long way to helping with
the problem...

James

.

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