Re: The Pope and Islam

On Mon, 9 Jan 2006 01:43:25 -0000, "Energumen"
<energoumenos@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

typed:
>"abelard" <abelard2@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>news:gi53s11lbecv7fu9jr79kv7f0tnp2obd39@xxxxxxxxxx
>> On Sun, 8 Jan 2006 14:44:19 -0000, "Energumen"
>> <energoumenos@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>
>> typed:
>>>Pope actually "gets it" wrt Islam?
>>>
>>>http://www.radioblogger.com/#001282
>>>
>>>----------
>>>
>>>Father Joseph Fessio, a student and friend of Pope Benedict XVI, on the
>>>problems Christianity, especially in Europe, faces with the spread of
>>>Islam
>>
>> i've cut this down to what i see as the more interesting bits...
>> with a few small comment...
>>
>> JF: Well, I mean, he'll address himself to it in the sense that if
>> Christians take seriously the word of God, both in the Gospels and in
>> Genesis, they're going to be fruitful and multiply. As you say, that kind
>> of a reproduction rate is not going to work. In fact, this year, well,
>> last year, actually. 2005, there were more Muslims born in France than
>> people of traditional French background. Within four years, the top four
>> cities in Holland will be...most populous cities, will have a Muslim
>> majority. I mean, if we look at the demographics, which can change, but
>> they change slowly, I don't see any other issue for Europe, or any result,
>> than looking like North Africa, you know? Algeria, Morocco, Libya, Egypt,
>> I mean, they were all Christian, thriving Christian communities, you know,
>> in the early Church. And now, you can't profess your faith there. You
>> can't bring a Bible in some of those countries.
>> ....
>>
>> JF: But as background, I want to say without exaggeration, and without
>> trying to become histrionic here, I see the trends...I've seen them for
>> years, in Europe, of depopulation as you've mentioned. And their
>> immigration is coming from the South, which is mainly Islamic. And there
>> are, I think there are 98 Islamic countries in the world, and 97 of them
>> do not have religious freedom. The only one that does is Mali,....
>>
>> every time i see a figure i want to check it out!
>>
>> ....
>>
>> supposedly said by benedict(pope)
>> JF: Well, the thesis that was proposed by this scholar was that Islam can
>> enter into the modern world if the Koran is reinterpreted by taking the
>> specific legislation, and going back to the principles, and then adapting
>> it to our times, especially with the dignity that we ascribe to women,
>> which has come through Christianity, of course. And immediately, the Holy
>> Father, in his beautiful calm but clear way, said well, there's a
>> fundamental problem with that, because he said in the Islamic tradition,
>> God has given His word to Mohammed, but it's an eternal word. It's not
>> Mohammed's word. It's there for eternity the way it is. There's no
>> possibility of adapting it or interpreting it, whereas in Christianity,
>> and Judaism, the dynamism's completely different, that God has worked
>> through His creatures. And so, it is not just the word of God, it's the
>> word of Isaiah, not just the word of God, but the word of Mark. He's used
>> His human creatures, and inspired them to speak His word to the world, and
>> therefore by establishing a Church in which he gives authority to His
>> followers to carry on the tradition and interpret it, there's an inner
>> logic to the Christian Bible, which permits it and requires it to be
>> adapted and applied to new situations. I was...I mean, Hugh, I wish I
>> could say it as clearly and as beautifully as he did, but that's why he's
>> Pope and I'm not, okay? That's one of the reasons. One of others, but his
>> seeing that distinction when the Koran, which is seen as something dropped
>> out of Heaven, which cannot be adapted or applied, even,
>> and the Bible, which is a word of God that comes through a human
>> community,
>> ...
>>
>> JF: Yeah, that Christianity can engage modernity just like it did...the
>> Jews did Egypt, or Christians did to Greece, because we can take what's
>> good there, and we can elevate it through the revelation of Christ in the
>> Bible. But Islam is stuck. It's stuck with a text that cannot be adapted,
>> or even be interpreted properly.
>>
>> i think that is excessive....but i want more data
>>
>> .....
>> JF: No. And then a second thing which he did not say, but which I would
>> have said, I might have said at the time, is that...and this is from a
>> Catholic point of view, there's no one to interpret the Koran officially.
>> the Catholic Church has an official interpreter, which is the Holy Father
>> with the bishops.
>>
>> while relevant i think this cuts both ways...
>> it is the place of every islamic to understand islam...and there is
>> *certainly* much interpretation involved at many levels...
>
>I think we're stuck in an issue of differentiating between individuals and
>probability distributions. More sophistry in this case. In the west we tend
>to think of individuals as always the ultimately important political unit
>and to hell with groups. Islam can exploit this.
>
>Could someone intepret Mein Kampf or Das Kapital in a way that is acceptable
>to you? Perhaps the 0.1 th percentile of the far left of the normal
>distribution of the most "liberal" interpretations of Mein Kampf amongst
>those who read it would be acceptable to you. Where would that leave us? Why
>can we not just say that Mein Kampf is simply wrong? Or Das Kapital? Will
>the sky fall on our heads? What minimum percentile of interpretations would
>have to be wrong before we are justified in just opposing the whole kit and
>kaboodle?
>
>Why is it that you (or I) can say that Marxism is a lot of rot but when I
>say Islam is a lot of rot people jump up and down? They seem to think that
>Islam is genetic or something. So was Pope John Paul wrong to call communism
>wrong and unchristian because someone could search using google and find one
>person who calls himself a communist but doesn't believe things that are
>incompatible with freedom, even if they're rarer than Raelians?
>
>We hear people speak of Islam as a culture. Is Bahai a culture? Is
>Christianity a culture? Is Nazism a culture? Is Communism a culture?
>Anything but face the truth.
>
>It's time to bring the charges against Islam. Let's see if any Muslims can
>answer them. Start with http://tinyurl.com/4s54l if we need to start
>somewhere. Public debate. Out in the open. Let them prove us wrong. If there
>are such creatures as moderate Muslims then let's see who they are. Force
>their hand. Put the cards on the table. Irshad Manji is obviously moderate
>and calls herself a Muslim. I can accept her claim to moderateness but would
>dispute that she is a Muslim.
>
>> there is no way islam is monolithic despite the claims herein...
>
>The problem with this statement is the definition of the word Islam. If you
>have a loose enough definition you can "prove" anything with some anecdote.
>Is communism monolithic? Are there some forms of acceptable and moderate
>communism? Is China's present day "communism" really capitalism? Is Judaism
>really a form of Christianity? Is fly fishing a type of religion? On and on
>it goes.
>
>Acting in the way Mohammed acted in the Hadith and Koran is not acceptable.
>Sharia rather than democratic lawmaking is not acceptable. Killing apostates
>is not acceptable. Killing homosexuals is not acceptable. Offensive Jihad is
>not acceptable. Khalifah is not acceptable. Jizyah is not acceptable. Take
>it point by point if you must. Take everything out of Islam that is
>unnacceptable and are you left with an acceptable Islam? Or no Islam at all?
>Just someone, like Irshad Manji, who calls themselves a Muslim but isn't
>one?
>
>If you think I'm talking rot and that's not Islam well fine but it's not
>your job or the job of any other non-Muslim to say that, it's the job of
>Muslims. That's the way it ought to work. Let's get the debate started and
>no more dhimmitude like,
>http://www.zaman.com/?bl=international&alt=&trh=20060107&hn=28382
>
>First we need to kick political correctness into touch.

>Here is an analysis much more generous to Islam than I could ever be, and
>that I don't agree with, but at least it doesn't fall into the traps of
>shifting from groups to individuals or vice versa,
>http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2006/01/dont-pretend-believe.php
>
>The crux of the matter to me though is that what Mohammed did was very
>wrong. Why should I treat someone who claims to follow him as any different
>than some who claims to follow Adolf Hitler? Where is the difference? It's
>not that simple you might say. Why is it not that simple?
>
>Why should I be searching for moderate Muslims but not moderate Nazis?

i'm not primarily concerned with these books though the islamic writings
are much more complex/sophisticated than the nonsense of mein kampf
or marx....

i s'pose i'd better link you to this on which i am working as
collaborator...
not really ready for the full light of day yet.....
http://www.aoiko.net/politics/20050108steyn_deconstruction.php#footnote_arab

in national socialist germany and socialist russia there were trillions of
'ordinary' mugs who voted for hitler or thrilled at the parades in red
square who were *strongly* apolitical....
some of the dumbasses even voted for hitler and cheered him on
his ride abouts....the **vast majority** never read mein kampf....
even the fools in the west who read him mostly supposed it was
rhetoric...'surely he's not mad'....trouble is he was raving....
not greatly different in moscow where most all the little socialists from
the west went and saw what they wanted to see....

now...islam is not nearly such a top down religion as catholicism or
even the standard socialist hierarchical examples....
it is mostly the spoiled idle middle class kids who are at the heart of
'islamic' mayhem....
next...*i repeat* there are a thousand and one 'interpretations' whether
the koran says so or not...or whether the jihadi loons say so or not..
what on earth do you think shia and sunni and sufi are about...
let alone the endless angel on pins debates about legal meanings....

the average uneducated (most of the m.e) jerks on the street are just
trying to get by....
and there is no pope to give them the authoritarian steer....

sure idiots in saudi and loons like bin liner are attempting to exploit
the ignorance...but so did catholicism until extremely recent times..
yet the catholic birth rates at the very centre of catholicism is dropping
like a stone...

why on earth do you suppose it will be different as the females are
educated and the masses increase in wealth?

ps i'm running to keep up and will be for some days at least so this is
rushed...see the large fisking of steyn linked above...it is being
updated...at times by the hour!

if your position is that of steyn or that of your vatican shill i think
much of the core of the argument is shot...

>> JF: Well, Hugh, I've got one of the very few things that I've said, which
>> I'm proud of, because it's become kind of almost a slogan to some, is that
>> home schools are the monasteries of the new dark ages. That is...and you
>> non-Catholic Christians have a lot more of them than we Catholics do, but
>> we've got a lot. And I think that is where families are having children.
>> They're passing on the faith to their children. They're giving them wisdom
>> and the knowledge of our culture. And we have an advantage here, because
>> the homosexuals, and the pro-abortionists, and the pro-contraception
>> people, are not having children by definition.
>>
>> HH: That's in the Stern article as well.
>>
>> 'home schools are the monasteries' interesting comment...of course another
>> term for this is american fundies are acting just the way these two
>> are claiming islam is acting
>> isolation and not engaging with the modern world...

regards..
blind copied to one other

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