The Pope and Islam

Pope actually "gets it" wrt Islam?

http://www.radioblogger.com/#001282

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Father Joseph Fessio, a student and friend of Pope Benedict XVI, on the
problems Christianity, especially in Europe, faces with the spread of Islam

HH: Special hour now, as I'm joined by Father Joseph D. Fessio, who is the
Provost of Ave Maria University in Naples, Florida, also the founder of the
publisher Ignatius Press. He's a Jesuit. He's also a student and a friend of
Benedict XVI, and a second time on the program. Father Fessio, welcome back
to the Hugh Hewitt Show.

JF: Good to be back, Hugh. Good talking to you.

HH: Great to have you. I wanted to talk to you today, because Mark Steyn, a
tremendous writer, wrote a piece yesterday on the loss of the West, because
of depopulation, and because of a lack of seriousness. And I believe that
this has been a theme in your teacher, Benedict XVI's first nine months as
Pope. Am I right about that?

JF: Absolutely right, Hugh.

HH: Explain what the Pope has been saying since he assumed the throne of St.
Peter.

JF: Well first of all, the very first thing you said was a 22 minute talk in
Latin on April 20th, which is amazing he did that, just in the evening. But
he's been clear what his papacy is supposed to do. And number one was
fidelity to Jesus Christ, that we must serve Jesus. He's our Lord. He's our
master. Everything else is secondary, which was beautiful for him to say
that. Secondly, he wanted to work on conjunction with, with the prayers and
support of all his fellow bishops and cardinals. Thirdly, that he wanted to
help the Catholic Church go into the future by understanding properly the II
Vatican Council, which was all the bishops in the world getting together to
try and chart a course. But then, when he came to the content, he said the
very first thing we have to do, and make sure we do well, is to praise and
worship and adore the Lord in a proper way. If we do that, then everything
else will follow from that. You know, our work with the poor, our
evangelization, our attempt to find greater unity with our fellow
Christians. All that, but it's going to flow from our fidelity to
worshipping the Lord properly. So that's his plan. But he took the name
Benedict. And you know, Benedict was really the father of Europe after the
fall of the Roman Empire. It was the Benedictine monasteries that had given
themselves entirely to meditation, prayer, service to the Lord, reading His
word, contemplating it, and offering him proper sacrifice. This was what
actually formed Christendom in Europe. And I think he's hoping to have a
renewal of that spirit.

HH: And what would that look like, as you understand what he's talking
about, Father Fessio?

JF: Well, I have to say two things. First of all, we know what the first
Europe looked like. I mean, that's where we all, most of us come from in our
culture, and even our religious background. But unlike John Paul II, who
spoke of a new springtime, and a new evangelization, and seemed to talk
sometimes as if there was going to be a tremendous transformation of the
world, including Europe, Benedict XVI, even before he was Pope, has talked
about the remnant, the fact that we as Christians, if we are truly faithful
to Christ and His word, we're going to be a minority, and a minority which
is becoming more and more marginalized, and even oppressed. So I don't
think, I don't think Benedict XVI is thinking that we're going to have a new
Christendom, in which Christian principles permeate all of society. I think
he probably is more, his vision is that we must be faithful to Christ, and
He will support us and strengthen us, and we can't predict what our role
will be in society. But it's probably going to be as a minority.

HH: Oh, that's very interesting. In this Steyn column, he pointed out that
the reproduction rate in Spain, a very Catholic country, is at 1.2, that
every generation, half of Spain is gone, not necessarily in whole terms,
because they have inward immigration, mostly from North Africa. But I
thought Benedict would address himself to this depopulation of Europe. But
you're suggesting perhaps not.

JF: Well, I mean, he'll address himself to it in the sense that if
Christians take seriously the word of God, both in the Gospels and in
Genesis, they're going to be fruitful and multiply. As you say, that kind of
a reproduction rate is not going to work. In fact, this year, well, last
year, actually. 2005, there were more Muslims born in France than people of
traditional French background. Within four years, the top four cities in
Holland will be...most populous cities, will have a Muslim majority. I mean,
if we look at the demographics, which can change, but they change slowly, I
don't see any other issue for Europe, or any result, than looking like North
Africa, you know? Algeria, Morocco, Libya, Egypt, I mean, they were all
Christian, thriving Christian communities, you know, in the early Church.
And now, you can't profess your faith there. You can't bring a Bible in some
of those countries.

HH: That's actually what Mark Steyn was arguing as well. Let me pivot for a
second, Father Fessio, to a story that came out today. The spiritual leader
of the 200 million plus orthodox Christians said Thursday that he is eager
to meet with Pope Benedict XVI, sometime in the coming year. Bartholomew I
told he was looking forward to healing the long-standing rift between Rome
and the orthodox Churches. Is it necessary for Christendom, in all of its
various manifestations to sort of rally together, as opposed to continually
divide?

JF: Well, that's what Jesus wants, you know? He prays we'll all be one, as
He and the Father are one. Well, we're not very near that now. But at least
we can respect each other and have good arguments with each other, and try
and come to the same unity of love and faithfulness to Christ. That's
important. But of course, the orthodox Churches is a whole story in itself.
There's 14 Patriarchates. They've been trying to have a pan-orthodox synod
for more than forty years. They can't get the 14 Patriarchates together, you
know, much less have a union with Rome, or with all of Christianity.

HH: What about Rome's reach to its Lefevre-ites schismatics?

JF: Well, there's a broad canvas here you're jumping to.

HH: I know. I'm just trying to get my arms around...first, you've got to
have defensible lines, and then you've got to worry about the rest of
Europe.

JF: Yeah. Well, I mean, the one good thing about this is that I do think the
thing being the incursion of Islam...and look, let's face it. Muslims, many
of them, perhaps a majority of them are serious about their faith. They're
devout. But they have a religion whose principle is based on God's word, not
in the words of men, but God's word delivered directly to Mohammed, which
can't be interpreted, can't be changed, can't be adapted. And that word is
to conquer the word, or render everyone subject to the one true religion,
which is Islam. I mean, it is not a religion of stasis or peace. It's a
religion of evangelization...or that's not a good word, because that's a
Gospel word. But I mean it's a religion of missionary conversions.

HH: Father Fessio, now I have Muslim friends who will argue that that's not
what Jihad means. How do you respond to them?

JF: Well, your Muslim friends are wrong, because Jihad can be largely
interpreted to be a spiritual struggle. But the text themselves talk
explicitly about the extension of Islam to all peoples, and they allowed
either to accept, or if they reject it, they have to be...pay a tax, you
know, and you become dimis, or second class citizens, or subject citizens to
Islam. Actually, it's interesting. I was in Rome, actually Castel Gandolfo,
the Pope's summer residence, in September of 2005. His former students met
with him, and the topic of our meeting was the Islamic concept of God, and
its consequences for a secular society. And we had two people there who gave
talks, one of them extraordinary, a man named Kalil Safir Kalil(?), who is
an Egyptian born Coptic Catholic, Lebanese Jesuit priest who runs an
Islamic-Christian center in Lebanon, and he's got a book called Ciento
Domande Su Islam, 100 Questions On Islam. He knows it inside and out. And he
quotes key Islamic leaders saying the following: Because of your religious
tolerance in Europe, we will overtake you. We will be coming into Europe.
Because of our religious beliefs, we will conquer you. I mean, there should
be no doubt about it. They're intent, and I don't blame them for this. They
believe they got the true religion. They are going to overcome here. They've
been trying to do it for...since the 600's.

HH: 600's, yeah. Father Fessio, stay with us. I'm so glad we have this time
today, and...

JF: I'm sorry my answers are so long. I'm sorry about that.

HH: Oh no, they've got to be. It's a hard problem. Part of the problem of
the West is every answer has to be short.

JF: That's true.

HH: Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz was my guest once, and he said the trouble with
the West is all it wants is a good five cent religion. And he was right.

---

HH: Father Fessio, before we went to break, you mentioned that in September,
a group of the Pope's former students, or continuing to be students,
gathered at Castel Gandolfo. Was Benedict XVI with you?

JF: Yes, he was.

HH: How's he doing, physically, etc?

JF: You know, Hugh, I have to say, I've seen him every year now, since 1972.
And he's always been very calm and very peaceful. But he looked radiant. I
mean, he looked younger. I mean, he was...I think this is God's call for
him. I really do.

HH: Now on December 30th, in the Los Angeles Times, George Weigel, whose a
very, very reputable friend of the Church, and biographer of both John Paul
II and Benedict XVI, wrote kind of a testy column about Benedict, at his
pace of reform of the Curia and other things. Did you happen to see that?

JF: I did not, no. I'll take a look at it. I'll look for it now, though.

HH: Yeah, he wants him to hurry up, and especially in the question of the
appointment of bishops. Do you sense he's moving deliberately?

JF: Yes, you know, he's a man of deep, deep personal devotion to our Lord,
and loves the Church. And even though his ideas are clear, and his
committment to the Christian faith is completely solid, he is very gentle,
and he doesn't want to harm people. He doesn't want to upset people. He
wants to talk to them, and listen, and get input. He doesn't act quickly.
But he's already making changes here and there. I mean, I think...I'm not
disappointed at all.

HH: All right.

JF: We're Americans, Hugh. We like to fix something right now.

HH: Oh, you bet. Yesterday wouldn't be too soon. Let's go back to this
meeting, because I'm fascinated by this. And to the extent that you can,
obviously, without violating confidence, who was there? And how did it
unfold? And what was the idea behind it?

JF: Well, Joseph Ratzinger as professor was very, very popular, and had
many, many graduate students. And as part of the graduate program, you'd
have these seminars called Hauptseminare, major seminars, or Proseminaren,
and there'd be eight or ten or twelve of us graduate students with Cardinal
Ratzinger. Then, he was Father Ratzinger leading it. And they were so rich,
so fruitful, that when he became archbishop of Munich in 1977, the students
decided that they would want to try and continue some kind of regular
meeting to discuss theological issues. And he was very happy to do that. So
from that point on, every year, we have met for a weekend, usually at a
monastery. We'll pray together, we'll read scripture together, we'll do
fellowship together, we will study together, we will eat together, and have
a couple of presentations from scholars on a particular topic, and we'll
discuss it. They've always been very, very enriching and very beautiful. And
so, we had planned last year, in 2004, that in 2005, we would discuss Islam.
And it was all agreed upon. We had two people picked out to come. When he
was elected Pope, we figured well, it's going to be all off now. But he said
no, no. He said I'm Pope, but I want to keep my relationships with my
friends in the past, and I want to continue this. That's why we had it
again.

HH: And the other speaker, who would that have been?

JF: That was another Jesuit, actually, from Germany, a Father Christian
Troll, who is an expert on Islam in Europe.

HH: And what were the natures of their presentations? That it is an ominous
time for Christendom, because it simply cannot keep pace, either population
or with zeal, compared to the reach of Islam?

JF: Let me divide my answer into two parts, and you can interrupt me at any
time, because I realize it's your show. I'm taking all the time.

HH: Oh, no. I'm fascinated.

JF: But as background, I want to say without exaggeration, and without
trying to become histrionic here, I see the trends...I've seen them for
years, in Europe, of depopulation as you've mentioned. And their immigration
is coming from the South, which is mainly Islamic. And there are, I think
there are 98 Islamic countries in the world, and 97 of them do not have
religious freedom. The only one that does is Mali, where Timbuktu is, you
know. It's in a desert, so you can hardly count it. Sorry about any Malians
who are listening to this program. And that's what's going to happen to
Europe. Once there's an Islamic majority, it is going to not...it's going to
eliminate religious freedom. However...and therefore, Western civilization
as we know it. However, in the United States, we also are not having
children. There's abortion. There's contraception. There's the ideal of a
one or two child family. But where is our immigration coming from? From
Ecuador, from Mexico, from Cuba, from Guatemala. And these people are
Christians. And so, I believe without being...you know, having hubris as an
American, I believe that Christians in the United States are the ones who
will be able to save not just Christianity, but Western civilization, if we
maintain our fidelity to the scriptures, our fidelity to Christ, our
fidelity to family life, and our fidelity to fertility and fruitfulness in
marriage. So I believe we are in a world historical century, which is going
to depend upon the strength of Christianity in these United States. I say I
think that's...I may raise my voice. I may get excited. I might waive a
Bible or something like that, but I believe this is the hard facts, unless
God...He could always...He's in charge. He could perform a miracle. He could
do something we can't possibly have foreseen. But I see that as what's
happening. Now, that's part one. The second part is shorter. The main
presentation by this Father Troll was very interesting. He based it on a
Pakistani Muslim scholar names Rashan, who was at the University of Chicago
for many years, and Rashan's position was Islam can enter into dialogue with
modernity, but only if it radically reinterprets the Koran, and takes the
specific legislation of the Koran, like cutting off your hand if you're a
thief, or being able to have four wives, or whatever, and takes the
principles behind those specific pieces of legislation for the 7th Century
of Arabia, and now applies them, and modifies them, for a new society which
women are now respected for their full dignity, where democracy's important,
religious freedom's important, and so on. And if Islam does that, then it
will be able to enter into real dialogue and live together with other
religions and other kinds of cultures.

HH: Is he an optimist about that happening?

JF: He is, but interesting, Hugh, you know, all the seminars I recall with
Joseph Ratzinger, Father Ratzinger, he'd always let the students speak. He'd
wait until the end, and he would intervene. This is the first time I recall
where he made an immediate statement. And I'm still struck by it, how
powerful it was.

HH: We only have thirty seconds, Father Fessio.

JF: Oh, I can't do it.

HH: Then I want to come back after the break.

JF: Okay. Hugh, we've got to come back to this after the break.

HH: That's the greatest bridge ever.

JF: That'll keep your listeners.

HH: You betcha. No one's going to go away. And here's what the Pope said...

---

HH: Father Fessio, before the break, you were telling us that after the
presentation at Castel Gandolfo by two scholars of Islam this summer with
Benedict in attendance, as well as his former students, for the first time
in your memory, the Pope did not allow his students to first comment and
reserve comment, but in fact, went first. Why, and what did he say?

JF: Well, the thesis that was proposed by this scholar was that Islam can
enter into the modern world if the Koran is reinterpreted by taking the
specific legislation, and going back to the principles, and then adapting it
to our times, especially with the dignity that we ascribe to women, which
has come through Christianity, of course. And immediately, the Holy Father,
in his beautiful calm but clear way, said well, there's a fundamental
problem with that, because he said in the Islamic tradition, God has given
His word to Mohammed, but it's an eternal word. It's not Mohammed's word.
It's there for eternity the way it is. There's no possibility of adapting it
or interpreting it, whereas in Christianity, and Judaism, the dynamism's
completely different, that God has worked through His creatures. And so, it
is not just the word of God, it's the word of Isaiah, not just the word of
God, but the word of Mark. He's used His human creatures, and inspired them
to speak His word to the world, and therefore by establishing a Church in
which he gives authority to His followers to carry on the tradition and
interpret it, there's an inner logic to the Christian Bible, which permits
it and requires it to be adapted and applied to new situations. I was...I
mean, Hugh, I wish I could say it as clearly and as beautifully as he did,
but that's why he's Pope and I'm not, okay? That's one of the reasons. One
of others, but his seeing that distinction when the Koran, which is seen as
something dropped out of Heaven, which cannot be adapted or applied, even,
and the Bible, which is a word of God that comes through a human community,
it was stunning.

HH: And so, is it fair to describe him as a pessimist about the prospect of
modernity truly engaging Islam in the way modernity has engaged
Christianity?

JF: Well, the other way around.

HH: Yes. I meant that.

JF: Yeah, that Christianity can engage modernity just like it did...the Jews
did Egypt, or Christians did to Greece, because we can take what's good
there, and we can elevate it through the revelation of Christ in the Bible.
But Islam is stuck. It's stuck with a text that cannot be adapted, or even
be interpreted properly.

HH: And so the Pope is a pessimist about that changing, because it would
require a radical reinterpretation of what the Koran is?

JF: Yeah, which is it's impossible, because it's against the very nature of
the Koran, as it's understood by Muslims.

HH: And so, even the dialectic that was the Reformation is not possible
within Islam?

JF: No. And then a second thing which he did not say, but which I would have
said, I might have said at the time, is that...and this is from a Catholic
point of view, there's no one to interpret the Koran officially. the
Catholic Church has an official interpretor, which is the Holy Father with
the bishops.

HH: Right. Well, let me ask you then. If, in fact, that reformation within
Islam is not possible in the eyes of the Pope, and the demographics do not
change, as they are unlikely to change in Europe, the last time Christendom
went under the waves, so to speak, in Europe, there were the monasteries,
beseiged as they were by the barbarians, sacked as they were by the Vikings,
they endured.

JF: Yeah.

HH: That doesn't happen in modernity, because of the technology of
oppression. And you've just noted the reluctance of Islam to accept
religious pluralism, or to embrace it and celebrate it.

JF: Yes.

HH: And so what happens in Europe?

JF: Well, Hugh, I've got one of the very few things that I've said, which
I'm proud of, because it's become kind of almost a slogan to some, is that
home schools are the monasteries of the new dark ages. That is...and you
non-Catholic Christians have a lot more of them than we Catholics do, but
we've got a lot. And I think that is where families are having children.
They're passing on the faith to their children. They're giving them wisdom
and the knowledge of our culture. And we have an advantage here, because the
homosexuals, and the pro-abortionists, and the pro-contraception people, are
not having children by definition.

HH: That's in the Steyn article as well.

---

HH: Father Fessio, we're expecting the first encyclical from Benedict. We've
seen him refer to the plight of Europe a couple of times, and to the West,
generally. How do you, in practical terms, for the average listener whose
out there driving home from work, stuck in traffic, translate the challenge
for them? It's not just a theologian's debate. There's practical things that
have to be done.

JF: Hugh, when you look at sacred scripture, and ask who changed the world
and how they do it, there was a young Jewish girl, maybe 14, 15 years old,
was taking care of the house, and betrothed to a guy named Joseph who was a
carpenter. There's someone else who was doing his job, but at a tax
collector's bench, you know, taking money from the people. There was a
couple of other folks out on the lake fishing. They were doing what they
thought they should do, waiting for the Messiah, open to the Lord's
inspiration, and look what happened. The Angel Gabriel comes to Mary, says
you're going to bear the son of God. She accepts that. Jesus comes across
the lake and says follow Me. They follow Him. You don't, nor do I, have much
control in this country, or the world, or even the city we live in. But we
have control over our own hearts, and our own loves, and our own lives, and
our families. And I think we just have to follow the Lord and wait on His
call.

HH: What is the role of Ave Maria University in all this? Why found a new
university?

JF: Well, there's a whole lot of reasons for that, Hugh, but one of them is
that you want to help the poor. That's for sure. But everybody is born
intellectually poor. We're all born with a clean slate. No faith, no
knowledge. The future is going to be through education. It can't be any
other way. And we believe that it's important to impart to young people a
knowledge of Jesus, a knowledge of His word, a knowledge of a tradition of
the saints in the history of the Church, a knowledge of our civilization
which has produced so much beautiful work. I mean, look at Lord of the
Rings, and look at C.S. Lewis. I mean, the impact they've had. Why did it
have that impact? These were two highly educated Christians, who took their
talents and gave them to the Lord, and look what it's done. So we want to
try and impart that kind of knowledge to those who have the talent to imbibe
it and absorb it and to go forth and then pass that on.

HH: A great mission. I know that people can become participants in that by
visiting your website, and I encourage them to do that. Father Fessio, I
want to return to a couple just practical Church-related questions about
Benedict.

JF: Sure.

HH: He has not named any cardinals. Any reason why?

JF: Well, normally that takes place in February, at a consistory. And you
know, John Paul II expanded the number of cardinals quite a bit. There's
supposed to be 120 maximum, that are under 80. And it went beyond that. And
it wouldn't surprise me if the Holy Father waits and kind of lets the number
dwindle a bit, although you never know. He might appoint some more.

HH: There are also some key vacancies, according to George Weigel, in the
United States. I'm not sure what he's referring to. Do you have any idea
what he's talking about?

JF: Well, I think the archbishop of Washington, D.C, is resigning as of this
July. The bishop of Birmingham, Alabama, has retired. That's an important
seat. It's very small, but that's where Mother Angelica is, where the
Eternal Television Network, which is from the Catholic point of view, it's
the largest media operation in the world.

HH: Oh. And so, obviously, she must answer to the discipline of that bishop?

JF: Yes.

HH: And so that will be a very important appointment.

JF: That's a very important appointment.

HH: Is Benedict aware of that sort of thing?

JF: He definitely is.

HH: And generally speaking, in his appointments, he named the cardinal of
San Francisco to be the house...or his successor?

JF: It wasn't a cardinal. He was archbishop of San Francisco. He asked to be
his successor as the head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

HH: Did that surprise you?

JF: We're on the air, I don't want to comment.

HH: All right. What about the house theologian that he named?

JF: Well, yeah, that's an interesting post, but you ask yourself why does
John Paul II, or even more, Benedict XVI, need a house theologian?

HH: Right.

JF: I mean, Benedict XVI is probably the premier theologian of Christianity,
I would say. Not just the Catholic Church. I mean, the man has a brilliance
and a love of the Lord, and a depth which I think is unsurpassed.

HH: Now this is a funny question to people who aren't Christians, but I'll
ask it anyway. Maybe they'll figure it out. The succession of John Paul II
to Benedict...

JF: Yeah.

HH: This is really an unfolding of God's plan, in my eyes, because it's the
perfect succession, isn't it?

JF: It is, isn't it?

HH: Expand on why you think that.

JF: Well, of course, John Paul II was a tremendous person on the world
stage. Great enthusiasm and tremendous ability to let people see that to be
Christian, you can be intelligent, you can be joyful, you can be energetic.
I mean, it's great to have a world figure like that, who so beautifully
represents the best of Christian virtues. And of course, he chose Joseph
Ratzinger to be his most close associate in the affairs of the Church. And
so they worked together, they had a common view, they had a common mind on
things. And now, he's succeeded by his very close friend, who is quite
different from him in personality. And I would say that John Paul II was
more of a philosopher, whereas Benedict XVI is more of a theologian. But
there's a continuity there, and at the same time, there's a difference. And
so now people can see well, you can be a Pole and be a tremendous Christian.
You can be a German and be a tremendous Christian.

HH: And will you folks be gathering again next September?

JF: He said we would, yeah.

HH: Do you have the subject matter down yet?

JF: Actually, I proposed...well, there's two or three themes being
discussed, and I proposed we take religion and science, which of course,
would be very critical.

HH: Oh, very good.

JF: You know, Cardinal Schonborn wrote an article in the New York Times in
June...

HH: Right.

JF: ...that was criticized...and you know, the whole intelligent design
debate.

HH: Oh, that would be fascinating. I hope you'll come back and brief us on
that.

JF: I'd love to talk about that, Hugh.

HH: Father Fessio, a tremendous hour. Thanks for an abundance of your time.
I really appreciate it, as does, I'm sure, the audience, and God speed, and
have a great evening, sir.

JF: Hugh, it's been great talking to you. God bless you.

HH: Thank you. God bless you.

End of interview.

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