Re: Future Politics

"Stephen Horgan" <stephen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:4o1pq1tnmb01g11vog7lgkh9k7qchg52t7@xxxxxxxxxx
> On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 22:36:51 -0000, "Energumen"
> <ener_gumen@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>>"Stephen Horgan" <stephen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>news:aopoq1d7us6enkvk602k97o5q2takl5e7p@xxxxxxxxxx
>>> Globalisation and free trade are the best engines of wealth creation
>>> the world has ever seen. There is no more real argument about this.
>>> Alternative economic models have been tried, variations on Communism,
>>> Nationalism and the like,
>>
>>Nationalism is not an economic model.
>>
> True in absolute terms, but Nationalist politics has often
> incorporated a specific economic agenda.
>
>>Nationalism is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition for democracy.
>>No
>>nation state = no demos = no democracy.
>>
> All right.
>
>>The citizens should decide who in the world who are not currently citizens
>>can become citizens or can reside within the territory of the state. That
>>decision must be decided upon by a democratic process including a free and
>>open debate. That right is not negotiable. It is god-given.
>>
> Certainly a nation must decide citizenship policy, and enforce it.
> Unfortunately, that right is negotiable

The *right* is not negotiable, in the same way that your right to not be
murdered by me is not negotiable. The right for others to NOT be accorded
citizenship or residence of a country if it is not in accord with the
popular will is absolute.


> and can be given away to
> supra-national bodies if governments and peoples permit.

and taken back immediately if desired. Otherwise you have just abolished
democracy in that state. In fact by altering who can be citizens you would
be interfering with the very core of democracy, the composition of the
nation, like the Soviet Union displaced millions of ethnic Russians into
it's satellite states for political purposes. If the composition of
citizenship is not within the control of the populace, and free debate
permitted on this, then it is anti-democratic, not just in a superficial
way, but in a profound way, since you are changing the composition of who is
accorded citizenship rights and a vote. It does not appear to be working in,
for example, the US.


>>
>>The problem with what is often called "globalisation" is that it is
>>dictatorship under another name. Effectively feudalism but with capital
>>owners instead of land owners. With laws made by technocrats rather than
>>popular will.
>>
> This is nonsense. Globalisation is a process under the control of
> elected politicians, who largely support it because it makes their
> people wealthier.

But it places lawmaking outside the feedback mechanism of democracy within
nation states and into international bodies such as the EU reducing
democracy by delinking laws from the control of nation states. If the EU was
itself a country it would not be democratic enough to be permitted entry to
the EU!

> The challenge is to put it into human terms and to
> make sure that the interests of short-term profit do not override
> longer term benefits or create longer term problems. International
> trade in the 21st century is complex, but so are many things.
> Successful politicians can lead on complex issues and connect with
> their people.

Just a comment. International trade and immigration should be treated as
entirely different, just as a free market in goods *within* a country should
have nothing to do with the rights on who can inhabit dwellings and other
individual property.

>
>>The problem with democracy is that there isn't enough of it.
>>
> Agree with that.
>
> --
> Stephen Horgan
>
> "intelligent people will tend to overvalue intelligence"
>
> http://www.horgan.co.uk/


.

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